Summer Tznius Reminder From Gedolei Lakewood

TZNIUS REMINDER: Below is the exact text of the letter printed by Lakewood Rabbonim reminding the community about Tznius issues prior to summer vacation: (This letter will appear in this weeks issue of the Voice Of Lakewood). Skirt Length: It’s forbidden for the knees to be revealed at any time, in any position. Therefore, all authoritative Poskim have agreed that a skirt must reach 4 inches below the lowest point of the knee cap at all times. Hosiery: It must be readily apparent that one’s legs are covered. Hosiery that is so sheer as to be barely noticeable, is not acceptable. Denier alone is not the only factor, as tightness and weave, (among other considerations) also have an affect on the covered appearance of the leg. It can safely be said, that it is almost impossible to find a denier of less than 30 that is permissible. Tightness Of Garments: It’s forbidden to wear tight fitting clothing. Clothing must be loose, not snug. The tightness of the fabric is completely immodest when it clings to the figure. Click here for more.

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34 COMMENTS

  1. Men's glasses should be loose fitting so that they can slip adequately down the nose. This will make women and their clothes seem to have no shape. A proper amount of smudging should be added to the lenses to further mitigate what can be seen. Contact lenses are obviously assur. There is a special shmira for those that take it upon themselves to drive with the chumras as well.

  2. Dear Anonymous 2:54,

    They are not "OUR rabbonim", they are "YOUR rabbonim". This is the internet. This web site is open to every single person in the whole wide world, except for those who live in places where the internet is banned. Come to think of it, the internet is banned in Lakewood. So why are you here?

    Anyhow, the vast majority of the internets does not consider them to be "OUR rabbonim".

    All the best.

  3. Why is everyone so up in arms whenever tsnius is discussed? People seem to be upset that such a concept exists. Tsnius awareness is very important especially when so many women do not seem to be aware that the way they dress is against the Torah. Keep up the good work Lakewood Scoop for posting this.

  4. At what point is it appropriate to point out the grammatical errors on the announcement. Come to think of it, there are actually 2 of them.

    (note my proper use of commas)

  5. People are upset because tznius is a frame of mind – not a set of standards. Tznius is not just about womem's clothing. And finally, like all shailos, this should be asked to your Rov, not subject to annual signs and postings.

  6. Oy Vey,

    Do you really think the women are unaware that the way they dress is "against the torah"?

    It has been drilled into our heads since we were three. We have been shamed, denigrated and made to feel like our bodies are evil, and therefore that WE are evil.

    We know. Oh, we know all too well.

  7. I wasn't making fun of this serious subject. If women are so aware of tsnius since they were little, then why do they not dress properly? Up in arms is just an expression. I am a woman, tsniusdik (I hope) and proud of it.

  8. Oy Vey,

    You asked: "If women are so aware of tsnius since they were little, then why do they not dress properly?"

    It's not that simple. First of all, we all have bechirah. Second of all, I think the current obsession with tznius is unhealthy and there are different halachic opinions.

    I also once thought that is was as simple as telling someone "this is the halacha" and once they knew it they would just follow it. It's not that simple.

    I grew up in Lakewood. I have since left and joined a modern orthodox community, where I find the attitudes toward women in general are much healthier and, I believe, halachically accurate.

  9. A woman has no reason to show of her body even if she is (or especially if she is) gorgeous. It isn't right to be enticing to men.

  10. Why do people get all worked up when a rov is just saying what the Halacha is. If they have a problem with rabonim , then perhaps you don't belong in a frum town
    move to manhattan and do as you please. One more thing when it comes to tznius it's almost impossible to do teshuva because one never knows which people were nichshal by looking, and don't say who told them to look.
    In these trying times let's strengthen ourselves by not following the nations.

  11. Anonymous said…
    Men's glasses should be loose fitting so that they can slip adequately down the nose. This will make women and their clothes seem to have no shape. A proper amount of smudging should be added to the lenses to further mitigate what can be seen. Contact lenses are obviously assur. There is a special shmira for those that take it upon themselves to drive with the chumras as well.

    ha ha good one

  12. My wife tries very hard to always be dressed tzniusdik. Just last week she returned a skirt that she didn't realize had a semi/sheer bottom until she got home(when I noticed it). The sheer part was actually WAY below the kneee but we both felt that it wasn't approprioate as it drew attention to that part of the body. She is alweays asking me if things are appropriate and REFUSES to buy tight fitting clothing. She keeps telling me that the it's terribly hard to find clothing in HER REAL size because everything these days are being made crazy tight…What I cannot understand and I DO NOT question OUR RABBONIM but I just cannot understand it. How many people in lakewood are weraing hoisery that is more than 30 denier besides for Rebbetzin Kotler….?? Really,how many?? Do we really expect everyone to put on 30 denier hoisery?? 30 denier is basically what is worn in Williamsburg. WE all jknow this is not happening anytime soon in Lakewood. That being the case we know that the Torah does not Asser something that most of the Tzibbur cannot withstand. I HONESTLY think this falls into that category. Please tell me if I'm wrong and don't bash my head in,I'm only bringing up a point. Before knocking me ask YOUR wife what denier SHE wears,what denier her sisters,neighbors,friends….wear and then tell me if I have a point. I am NOT Chas V'Shalom questioning our Rabbonim.

  13. to Modesty

    30 denier is not at all that thick. In Williamsburg they probably wear 50 – 70 denier.30 is only a little thicker than sheer and it looks quite nice.I am glad your wife tries to dress properly, halevi if everyone's wives would.

    There are certain rules to tsnius that are for everyone. Any Rov who paskens leniently as far as covering hair, skirt lengths, tightness of clothes etc. is a masis umadiach.

  14. Where is the Kol Koreh regarding ethics and not doing shtick?

    i dont mean to knock the rabbonim regarding tzinus but comon there are other more importtant things.

    Do we need more pictures in the papers of Yidden in Handcuffs?

  15. I have to take issue with the ad all together. The whole point is about tznius and the net result is a violation of tznius.

    What do people talk about after reading the ad. Exactly what they shouldn't be talking about. These guidlines should be read by women only. It should not be for public consumption on a current matter about real people.

    The gemarah says to drag the yetzer hara into the beis medrash. There, he has no strength. But out in public, on the street, he is having his field day.

    What a pity.

  16. The reason a lot of women don't dress properly is not because we didn't learn what to do or not do. It's because we didnt' learn WHY. It's also because tznius is very subjective – what one person considers attractive may be no big deal in someone else's eyes.
    Personally, I chose a friend to be my 'conscience', since it's hard to be honest with myself in front of the mirror. It's up to us to do what's right. And it's up to us not to judge other people.
    (By they way, my brother and father both take off their glasses when walking in the street during the summer. It's not such a crazy thing.)

  17. There are halachos about mens dress too . Why dont we hear or see any signs posted?? Agav,a talmid chochom who dresses in dirty clothes is chayav meeysa . Azoi shtayt in halacha

  18. Does "4 inches below the lowest point of the knee cap" apply regardless of the size of the knee cap? The letter is also silent regarding arms. Is it also 4 inces below the lowest point of the elbow or is it best to be machmir to the wrist?

  19. The Chofetz Chaim states that our Golus is due to Loshon Hara and sinas chinam. Isn't it about time we had as much effort put into having people talk nice and act in a way that will make us a "light unto the nations of the world?" Of course tznius has it's place But in my humble opinion we should ALL focus more on what comes out of our mouth and how we talk to and about people.

  20. "Men's glasses should be loose fitting so that they can slip adequately down the nose. This will make women and their clothes seem to have no shape. A proper amount of smudging should be added to the lenses to further mitigate what can be seen. Contact lenses are obviously assur. There is a special shmira for those that take it upon themselves to drive with the chumras as well."

    What exactly are the qualifications to determine what comments make it through and which don't…?

  21. At what point is it appropriate to point out the grammatical errors on the announcement. Come to think of it, there are actually 2 of them.

    (note my proper use of commas)

    and regarding ur post, there is an error as well…u should have put a ques mark instead of a period after the word announcement since u were asking a question and not just saying a regular sentence. ha!

  22. You're misinformed, 12:06. 30 denier, while not "ultra sheer" is far, far from opaque. If you look, you can certainly find lower denier, but it isn't easy – 30 is pretty typical, actually, even for those outside our community. Hosiery doesn't begin approach opaque until aroud 60 denier, depending upon color & material and during the winter, even department store tights are often 80+.

  23. Other letters we would like to see our rabbonim write.
    1.No children should ever go to a private place with anyone older. And no adults should ever be alone with anothers child EVER
    2.Schools should immediately fire suspected molesters and not hopethey molest someone at another school to cover up their mistake.
    3.Stop looking down on your fellow yid.
    4.Stop pretending you are working for the klal just so you can steal from them.
    5.Please refrain from throwing your children away from yiddishkeit just because they want to be different.
    The list can go on and on. Slunlords,schools,smoking,
    Why does something that has no clear halachah and is only relative to the style of the time always at the forefront of pressing issues?
    Maybe because it is so easy to passul something as simple as a garment.it can so easily be changed. But all the above ntioned issues take a lot of effort to tackle. May hashem help us all to realize that true improvement will take more than changing our stockings.

  24. this letter is from rabbanim in town but none of these rabbanim is my rav. therefore, i will not make sure that all my skirts are 4 inches below my knee because it is not what my rav holds. knees have to be covered at all times but there is no halacha that a skirt has to be 4 inches below the knee. and 30 denier— tights are tights…whether is 12 denier or 30 or 60, you can still tell when a girl is wearing tights. i dont know of anyone that plans on wearing 30 denier all because of this letter. yiddishkeit becomes a burden when things like this are made into halacha. there is no halacha that tights have to be 30 denier so why are these rabbanim making it into halacha????? now i have the reason why there are so many girls succumbing to the streets…

  25. Re the last two comments (anonymous and KATE PERRY) – amen!

    It seems that tznius is a "low hanging fruit", it's something that is quantified into rules and very visible. Not to mention, it's mostly spoken of with regard to women…

    This externalization of yiddishkeit is not a positive thing.

  26. I spoke to R' Felder about the 30 denier limit. (He didn't seem to know where it came from,but I later found out that R' Forcheimer came up with it by trying to see writing on someone's arm through different thicknesses of stocking.) He said it is not "assur" to wear anything less than 30 denier (since the custom is to wear less). But the "right thing" to do is to wear that amount. (I pointed out that the signed proclamation had language about "permissable", but he said that was not the real meaning, nonetheless.)

    [IMHO, the whole thing is based on an incorrect interpretation of a t'shuva in Igros Moshe, and that actually you can do whatever the custom is, in regards to the lower leg. (IIRC R' Falk (!) is actualy more lenient about this.) But speak to your rov about this, as usual.]

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