Poll: Should Hashgachas Enforce Just Kashrus, or Hashkafos Too?

 

 

 

 

 

Should Hashgachas Enforce Just Kashrus, or Hashkafos Too?
2077 votes
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57 COMMENTS

  1. (moderated) is a mafia
    There is no reason they remove a hechsher because they had hookahs by a kumzits in a party room in a restaurant
    Are they there to make sure the food is kosher or are they there to be your rabbi.
    This is why teenagers are struggling in lakewood it is this mentality of black and white.

  2. Let them first focus on Kashrus before worrying about hashkafa. I’ve been to afew events on a shabbos that there was no mashgiach (and yes, I made the baal simcha aware and only then did they confirm that WOW you are right. I did not see a mashgiach over shabbos.)

    • There’s a difference between a catered affair which has a Mashgiach & a “Food Service” where the caterers responsibility ends when the food is dropped off.
      That is the issue 99% of the time.

  3. Are we going to hold elections on who the hashkafa mashgichim should be or will we just all have to adhere to a selected few that the system chooses?

  4. If the Bal Machsher doesn’t feel comfortable having his name on a store that has a bad environment he may remove it.
    He is not forced to give a Hechsher in a place where he doesn’t approve of the behavior.

    Thank you,

    • Because it’s all a joke, they couldn’t care less, I manage a kitchen here in Lakewood and the (you know who) didn’t show up for months at a time, so for them to pull a hecsher based off some hookahs is wild, the (you know who) is in it for the money,

    • While you might be right than don’t go into the hechsher business. A food establishment unfortunately has do deal with the mafia and if you look funny at them they can just take away your hechsher. Do they have a contract that says you can’t have hookah. How is the business supposed to read the mine of the mafia boss what he feels like today that is not good

      Spell it out before you sign a contract and than maybe. Untill than no they can’t just do on a whim something like this.

  5. (moderated) is not a good hechsher I speak to many restaurants in town they all tell me the same thing… “all they care about is no music on sfirah. They do not look much at the kashrus standards”

  6. Maybe they should put cams in homes to make sure…oh, never mind…they’ll take my suggestion for face value.

    Seriously? Has this world gone mad? Even the Chinese aren’t so micromanaging…

  7. Every single organization has the rights to choose what type of people or establishments they want to have their name associated with.
    This is not about enforcing hashkofos.

    And not sure why people are so upset about this, there are other hashgochos out there and there are establishments in this town that use the others so…

    No reason to bash an organization because they chose to not be associated with certain standards.

  8. STANDARDS, STANDARDS, STANDARDS…
    Not sure why people are going so crazy about this, this is something that has always been around. Happened in Brooklyn many times over the years.
    Yes, when you put your name on a business you automaticaly get associated with the stuff that happens there, and you can’t force anyone to put their name on anything.
    Simple question – Would you take a client in your business that you don’t fully agree with his activities? Probably not

    • So the Hashgacha that is the official & only Hashgacha for a Non-jewish hotel should tell the hotel they can’t cater a Non-Frum wedding because of the lack of tsnius, mixed dancing & 98% Non-jewish music? I’m sure that’ll go over real well & in the big picture is that helpful or unhelpful?

      • see igros moshe yoreh deah chelek aleph siman ayin beis where R’ Moshe discusses if a caterer can be oiver lifnei iver for renting out their hall for a wedding with mixed dancing…

    • That’s why local vaads that don’t need to compete for the lowest minimum standards to get the clients to choose them as hashgocho, are much more kashrus reliable, and they should enforce hashkofos.

  9. For everyone saying the Kashrus org doesn’t want to be associated with certain behavior- The Kashrus org has no issue being associated with restaurants that serve terrible food or terrible service.

    This has nothing to do with association, and everything do with their desire to regulate hashkafa.

    • It doesn’t work because it’s a grey area & hashgachas deemed to be too strict will lose their business to another hechsher.
      Also, Lakewood is not a bubble. There’s a whole bigger world of reality. I worked as a Mashgiach for a major Hashgacha. I worked quite a few weddings that didn’t have an Orthodox Rabbi officiating, tsnius was zero, mixed dancing was the norm, the band was Non-jewish with a female lead singer (who all know how to sing Moshiach:-). Is it better they at least have a Kosher wedding or should we force them to Treif?
      I worked a conference of Conservative “Rabbanim” & Askanim at a Conservative Shul. Should the Hashgacha refused to allow the caterer to take the job? Is it better Conservative Shuls give up on Kosher (as some have. There are some Conservative Shuls were for the Bar/Bat Mitzvah dinner they serve Treif in the Shul building.
      It’s a complex issue but the major Hashgachas have pretty much gone with “Better they eat Kosher & we won’t worry about the rest”

    • Weak comparison. No one will associate the taste of the food with the mashgiach but they will associate frum standards even if they don’t have to do specifically with kashrus. I’m sure you make business decisions based on how people will perceive your business

  10. They should regulate hashkafa on the most basic level. Standards that everyone across the board agrees are very wrong. Not chumros or personal preferences or ‘rough’ behavior because these are endlessly debatable and ultimately are subjective.

    Just as every Jew who believes in Hashem and the Torah agrees that the food must be kosher, so do all agree on other basic standards of behavior. It’s not strange to combine them – it is stranger to have kosher food combined with nonkosher behavior.

    • Let me tell you a secret.
      Many, Many, Many Non-Frum affairs use a Kosher caterer for various reasons. All DO NOT agree on other basic standards of behavior. I can’t tell you how many Non-Frum events I was a Mashgiach (for a major accepted Hashgacha) at: women with zero concept of tsnius dress, mixed dancing (even during “Moshiach” sung by a Non-jewish female wedding singer), barely a handful wearing yarmulkes, not 1 person washing for bread, no benching or Sheva Brachos. Should the Hashgacha refuse to certify & push them to have a “Treif Jewish Chasanah”
      It’s great to be able to isolate (to a large degree) ourselves in the Ihr HaTorah but once you leave this daled amos, sadly, there’s a whole other Jewish reality in America. Should there be one set of rules for the Haimish & another for those outside the tent?
      It’s a complicated issue with no easy answers.

  11. Kashrus Organizations need to stick to “Kashrus” as the name states. That’s it!! If the Kashrus organization doesn’t want to give a hashgacha because of the restaurant’s hashkafos, then they should not put their hashgacha on the restaurant in the first place.

  12. The agency could decide what it is that they’re willing to put up with. If they have standards that they want up kept in their facilities, that’s their business and if an establishment doesn’t maintain those standards, then the agency should do what it feels necessary, meaning to walk away from it.

    The thing that unfortunately is happening in Lakewood is that the agency still has the standards, while the people have lost theirs.

  13. Halacha should never be decided by a vote, but rather the Rabanim, this question and all the other votes should be asked to Rabbanim, Torah is not a democracy.

  14. Does everyone remember what happened with the smoke house southside when he did most outrageous thing and hung up an
    ISRAELI FLAG. yep an Israeli flag and the mafia threatened to take away his hechsher. The place everyone dreams of going to but chas v’shalom you hang up a flag and than you are threatened basically with your entire parnasa.

    Let the mafia deal with its own problems before they threaten there client’s. If they continue doing this, more and more restaurant will start moving to other hechshers. There are atleast 5 others now in lakewood

    • That story was a nothingburger.

      Some guy got upset and called him and the hechsher to complain. Nobody actually threatened anything, it drummed up some free advertising for him.

      This mafia does not exist.

  15. Plainly put, people who care about the kashrus of the food they eat, should also be particular about the environment the food is served in and the essence of the people involved in the provision of the food. Achashveriosh’s ball was glatt kosher, yet Mordechai HaYehudi (ok, he wasn’t a kashrus agency, just the G’dol Hador…) forbade the Yidden to attend.

  16. So to those who voted YES, what if the establishment featured immodest dancers on a stage but had a kosher kitchen? would you be comfortable with the kashrus?

  17. When someone learns how to be a mashgiach, they are schooled in food and cooking and whatever is involved in that process. What they believe is acceptable behavior in an establishment, when it has nothing to do with the actual food and preparation of the food thats being served there, is 100% irrelevant. Is it not their place to start imposing their beliefs on others. If you do not agree with the events taking place in an establishment, then do everyone a favor and don’t patronize that place. Their food hashgacha should not be pulled since they did nothing unkosher with the food. A hashgacha on a place should be solely focused on the food aspect and not on whatever additives are happening at the place, so long as non kosher food is not involved. Obviously once non kosher food or prep for that food is brought into question, then it makes sense to pull the hashgacha. You have to learn to separate what your job requirements are from any different feelings u have for what the place is doing outside of the food part. Just like the Israeli jewish doctors have to perform surgery on terrorists, while a mashgiach might not like the actions of the patrons they still need to give their hashgacha if they’re being paid and the store is following food and prep hashgacha requirements. If you dislike the actions of people outside of your jurisdiction than maybe u should get a different job.

    • Comparing Israeli doctors performing surgery on terrorists to mashgiachs providing kosher certifications is akin to equating apples with oranges. The two scenarios involve vastly different ethical, moral, and operational considerations. It oversimplifies complex situations and risks diminishing the gravity of each context by drawing an inaccurate parallel.

  18. Its a free market. If one hashgacha wants to enforce their hashkafos they can enforce whatever feel is proper and the restaurant is welcome to get a different hashgacha. Dont see the problem.

  19. When will this town realize its population has grown? Give it up. It’s not a small insulated community anymore. Wake up to reality. There are many different types of people and you cannot control a whole city! thats called communism.

  20. A healthy balance can keep the owners in check, customers happy, and Hashem happy too.

    There can’t be a double standard either.

    Or Perhaps there should be two options. A general Hashgacha on just keeping Halacha, and a Hashgacha Plus, which ensure their Hashkafos are being met.

  21. Is this kind of thing spelled out in the contract between the restaurant and the kashrus org? Or is this like social media sites where they make up the rules as they go along?

  22. So if the mashgiach doesn’t like the color red, and the store repaints something in red… they’ll pull the hechsher? Just saying…. where is the line? If it’s not only about the kashrus, then why not?

  23. I was in an eating establishment under thr aforementioned moderated hashgacha and the mashgiach was all concerned that the beans aren’t Kosher because there is sugar in the nutrition facts. The goy!!! Needed to explain to their ‘mashguach’ that most foods have sugar content in their nutritional content and that there’s not actual sugar in there. I wouldn’t eat in their restaurants. Thankfully after the holah fiasco they were forced to change to am actual good hashgacha

  24. Not to compare Lakewood to Eretz Yisroel, but the BADATZ Eida Chareidus, and many other heimishe hechsheirim, do regulate their clientele’s hashkofos. Years ago, there was a fruit drink that had a picture of a MAN surfing, and the Badatz refused the hechsher. If there are multiple hashgachos, let the better ones be makpid and the lesser ones less. This way the conservative can have their KOSHER and the Chassidishe and Yeshivaleit have their KOSHER.

  25. And I think burgers should be sold on bagels
    Who does the burger shop think they are to only serve it on a burger bun? I’m the customer and I should decide! Let’s make a poll about this and let’s see who feels that bagels should be an option for burgers or not?

    Keeping kosher is not an option if you are a Torah observant Jew, if you are not than do what ever you want.

    How do we know what’s kosher? We’re relying on the hashgacha to make sure it’s kosher.

    Kashrus is a service, the certifying agency is a service provider. As any service provider they have every right to decide what service they are providing. You don’t have to use their service, that’s your right, but you can not tell them what service they have to provide.

  26. It might be different if it’s a community vaad vs an independent organization such as the OU or OK. A community hechsher will usually go with what’s consistent in representing their community. If you’re in 5 Towns, Manhattan, Teaneck the types of customers will be different from the Lakewood world.

  27. hope my comment is allowed through.
    there are two issues here
    1. is the food kosher
    2. will the event lead people to perform averos.
    two differnt things. giving hashgocha on the food is not the same as giving hashgocha on the event.
    should non frum people be denied kosher food when its available? if you have any ahavas yisroel in you the answer is no, they should not be denied kosher food

  28. In charedi circles the customer has certain expectations. I think it’s fair that goyish music should not be on. I also think that stores that hire waitresses that dress like zonas is problematic. Theses types of issues are in Lifnai
    ever………Please don’t tell me that it’s not halacha and call it hashkafa.

  29. they can have kosher food at a boxing match. Would I suggest going to a boxing match? no. One should research a place before visiting if he is concerned

Comments are closed.