I’m a regular frum working man living here in Lakewood with my family. For many years, I’ve been davening at home — putting on tallis and tefillin in my living room and doing Mincha and Maariv wherever I happened to be.
Recently, I was inspired to start davening with a minyan.
Because of my very erratic schedule, there is really only one place in my area that works for me — a shul that has many minyanim throughout the day and later Shacharis times.
After a few days of davening there, I noticed a large sign that said:
“Anyone davening here must come with a hat and suit. If this is too hard for you, don’t daven here.”
I felt extremely uncomfortable. I spent the entire davening waiting for someone to tap me on the shoulder and ask me to leave.
I understand kavod for davening, and I truly respect that. I’m not writing this with bitterness. But since when did we start gatekeeping our minyanim?
Each time I came, I was dressed respectfully — dress pants, proper shoes, and either a dress shirt or a polo shirt. This is how I attend business meetings. I don’t own a hat. I haven’t owned one since my bar mitzvah more than twenty years ago. I generally don’t wear suits.
Outside of our specific community, a very large percentage of frum Jews do not wear a hat. Are we really limiting participation in a minyan only to those who look exactly like us?
What happens when someone comes to visit from out of town?
When I saw that sign, I felt a lot of my inspiration fade away. I am still going to try to continue davening with a minyan, but with that shul effectively off limits to me, I honestly don’t know how long that will be realistic.
I can’t claim to fully understand the ways of Shamayim, but I couldn’t help thinking what happens when the Rav of that shul comes up after 120. He may see “not doing tefillah b’tzibbur” on the scale.
“But I never missed a minyan in my life,” he might say.
“But you hung up that sign in your shul,” they may reply.
I hope this can start a thoughtful and honest conversation about how we welcome every Yid who is simply trying to be zocheh to Tefillah B’Tzibbur.
TLS welcomes your letters by submitting them to us via Whatsapp or via email [email protected]
I don’t believe this is true since many of my children live in the Lakewood area and don’t necessarily daven with a suit and hat.
He’s talking about a certain popular shul in his area and this is isn’t either the first complaint being written here about it.
I think it’s in the (moderated) but I’m not completely sure which place it is because thankfully I’ve never been sent out especially since at least usually I’m wearing a hat and jacket. But I would want everyone to know they’re welcome and feel accepted.
I think it’s possible that maybe one Shul has such a sign.
Maybe Hashem is sending a hint to this person that it would be extremely beneficial for him to daven in a different Minyan.
So let’s forget about the sign and try to find a different Minyan.
Let’s treat each Minyan like a business meeting. People travel to meetings.
Actually in the days of Zoom, not so much.
Also, people have the option of scheduling business meetings around their schedule. Can’t really say “my afternoon is slammed so we’re going to have to reschedule that Mincha”
Hashem wants you to be super happy 24/7.
I think that it will be easier for you to be super happy in a different Minyan.
Food for thought
Hashem doesn’t want you to be super happy. What’s wrong with being emotionally satisfied?! The obsessive quest to be super happy (high) is what is leading people to feeling miserable. Their unrealistic expectations are highly shortchanged. See Rambam Hilchos Daios.
Forget that if your doing what’s right tell them to go fly a kite there’s no sign at the entrance to gan Eden that says black hats only and btw I do wear one.
🎵🎵🎵🎵I don’t need your Beketche the only thing I need is you! 🎵🎵🎵🎵
I was thinking along these lines too! 😂
LOL
100 percent people trying to be holier then God
#Avodah Zara
I’m uncomfortable with the sign too (even though I do wear a hat and jacket daily). I am thankful that I found other davening options for myself. (A place that is convenient and welcoming)
I can’t question or judge the situation publicly without having a conversation with the person who placed the sign. Instead I just don’t go there.
I 100% agree. I know exactly which shul you are referring too and I also must avoid it because of these “rules”. They can say daven somewhere else but if that causes someone to miss davening with a minyan it’s on THEM after and after 120 they’ll have plenty piled on. You can tell people how to daven to g-d, worry about how you daven.
Dear Inspired,
I too have had similar struggles as you. I too used to point fingers at those I didnt agree with.
I have had lots of queshtions about priorities others possessed that I have not received answers to.
However, that all changed when I decided to change my outlook.
I say decided as its a choice and a mental decision. I dont allow others to discourage me or make me stop doing something positive. Keep at it and watch your day feel better and be more productive.
I agree 100% with you!! Several times I have been rushing home from out of town to catch mincha with a minyan. I usually dont travel with my hat to work. My hesitation was, daven with a minyan with no hat or daven alone. I went to that shul and davened with a minyan. I did feel very uncomfortable and nervous for that tap on the shoulder asking me to leave- never came. So aside for some added anxiety, I was able to daven with a minyan.
Rules are made to be broken. Be an outcast! But daven there with a minyan!
It’s a very nice letter. I am still doing what you used to do, but you should feel turned away from this particular Shul, not from davening with a minyan. If this is the only one available to you for mincha maariv, I would recommend that you specifically reach out to The Rav or gabbai , and ask them point blank , if they can make an exception for you
No need to ask
If someone asks where’s your hat and jacket ask him “hat and jacket where’s your jew”
take it easy fellow. I was once asked to help make a minyon, but not wearing a jacket or hat a few of the guys complained. So i was not counted. Guess what. I walked away leaving those clowns without a minyon and doubt if they got one.
The עולם is a גולם applies in that situation.
Wow, that is insane! Embarrassing for the Rav.. go with pride and a straight back, kol hakavod! Go to a Satmar, rachmistrivk, brookhill, kol shimshon, Grubers – stick to chasidishe Shuls they won’t say anything! We are warm and nonjudgmental!
I happen to know which shul he is talking about; it is a chassidish shul (unless coincidentally there’s another shul that also has the rule)
I am the letter writer.
This is specifically a chassidish shul.
Dear Lakewood Resident. First of all, it’s so heartwarming to read how you are striving to become a better Yid. May Hashem bestow all Brachos upon you and your family. On the other hand, I dont see anything wrong with having a rule about wearing hats and jackets. A Suit shows respect. Every person having to meet with Trump wears a Suit. If you dont like that rule, find a different shul.
That is just not true anymore.
who wears a hat to see Trump? This isn’t the 1940s. We have a congressman with shorts and a hoodie.
What happened when Zelensky showed up to the White House without a suit? He was thrown out. But he wears that black T-shirt everywhere! Why should he have to put on a suit when he visits Trump?? You’re not doing Hashem a favor by davening with a minyan. You are doing yourself a favor by increasing your chances of getting those teffilos accepted.
“This isnt the 1940s” says who? If we Chasidum keep to the tradition of wearing hats, just like in the 1940s where at that time not wearing a hat, for both men and women, was considered improper, to whom exactly do we have to answer to for wanting to keep that tradition??? Have you ever seen a Lakewood Rosh Yeshiva come in to Shul without an overcoat and hat??? Because in the secular word it become unacceptable that is why we have to adapt to the secular culture?
Correct. We all understood when Zelensky showed up to the meeting to beg Trump for more funding he was completely under dressed. How much more so, when we come before the Master of the world, to beg him to give us good….dress appropriately.
you’re comparing this situation with trump! Have you ever seen or been to the Kotel how many men don’t wear suits? And how about our IDF soldiers who come to daven there. SOME IN LAKEWOOD ARE TRYING TO BE HOLYIER THAN OTHERS.
To the author, find a welcoming Shule and not worry about a tap on the shoulders or staring eyes due to how you’re dressed.
So true
Zelenskyy?
I understand your feelings and situation and would encourage you to keep on growing. Many of us can personally relate to your experience.
Growing in your relationship with Hashem that is through Torah and Mitzvos. The Rav of that particular Shul is a Tzaddik, bona fide Talmud Chachom and a very understanding person (I am speaking from personal experience). Part of growing is understanding others; which is incumbent on us all. We need to understand not just those whose Torah observance seems less, but those who seem to have an intolerance as well.
About that particular shul- the first weekday after 10/7/23, I felt I needed to Daven Shachris in a place I could cry my heart out. The only Minyan I thought it would be possible was that specific Rav’s minyan. I went there- covered my face with my Taalis and unleashed my emotions of those two days. I cried for those all those Murdered, for those still being held captive.
Yes, many people have a sensitivity that we all agree to in concept but argue about the application. Would we consider hiring an individual who is otherwise qualified but showed up to the interview in shorts and a tank top?
Every Kehilla has the right to establish standards. Hashem wants you to find your place amongst other Yidden who bring you close to him. That very Heiliga Kehillah might just not be the right place for you.
I understand you. My son was working on himself and attended a local minyan factory for a few days. He was approached by someone and told he can’t daven there without a jacket. B”h he was strong enough to go elsewhere and not give up. We need to help people come close to hashem, not distance them. Please remain strong. Hashem loves you
Hi there, I don’t think that Moshe Rabbeinu or anyone from the Midbar had a black hat and jacket. People wore robes back then. The Kohen Gadol had a specific uniform he wore, and that DID NOT INCLUDE A HAT AND JACKET, or a beckesher (he had a different type of hat but that’s besides the point – we don ‘t wear turbans anymore). No streimel.
“I don’t need your beckesher! The only thing I need is YOU,” as Sruly Green nicely sung.
The Hebrew word for clothing is Beged – בֶּגֶד, which can also spell Bogeid – בֹּגֵד deception.
Clothing is a costume after all, a punishment since we ate from the Eitz HaDa’as, and now have to cover our shame, Hashem made clothing for Adam.
If you would feel comfortable wearing casual dress in front of a dignitary/king/emperor/president, then I think that should be fine in Shul as well.
I know which shul you’re talking about and I wish you tremendous Hatzlacha in overcoming what others think of you, and doing what the right thing is to do and not worrying about what others are thinking.
As Lipa Schmeltzer also sang, “Jew Jew where’s your beard, beard beard, where’s your Jew,” people get all caught up in attire and presentation so much that the inner core becomes forgotten. At that point, all I see is a beard but no Jew!!
You’re going to shul to daven, not to start a fashion show with others, not to talk in shul, not for socializing, you’re there to daven to Hashem and thank Him, that’s it, PERIOD. So what does the way I dress have ANYTHING TO DO with that mission, as long as its respectful??? Who are you to decide what attire I wear? What right does a Gabbai have to play the role of G-d and tell you to leave because you don’t have a hat on (especially when it rubs against the shel rosh straps and damages it).
Stop worrying about what others are doing and just do the right thing in your personal journey to SERVE HASHEM, not yourself, not others. G-D. Does G-d want me to wear a hat?
Rabbi YY Jacobson once said, “Everyone is born an individual, but most die as copies.”
When you stop caring about what others think, then you’re finally living for real and have a backbone. This is who I am. If you don’t like it then you can ask me to leave and I’ll go find a better shul to daven somewhere else! G-d has enough angels in heaven. He needs YOU. Hashem needs every Yid!! EVERY YID! And those who like to make fun of Thank You Hashem and the songs they release are doing a disservice and are missing the point. No more robotic Judaism!
Wishing you success!
Oy! If we are getting our hashkafos from Lipa and Sruly Green we are lost as a nation.
It is not their hashkafos. The Lipa Lyrics are from the Starmar Rebbe R Yoilish, and t4he Green ones a rebbesha story that happened
The Kohen Gadol wore more layers than just a black hat and suit… you’re talking hogwash.
‘Jew, Jew, where’s your beard…’ is not from a song or any idol-star singer. The source is from the Satmar Rav, that one of his chassidim once asked him why he respects Mike Tress so much, as after all [despite that he was a very dedicated askan, and did everything according to the guidance of the gedolim, but] he doesn’t even have a beard?
The Satmar Rav answered him: When he comes to Heaven, they’ll ask him ‘Jew, Jew, where’s the beard?’, but when you come to Heaven, they’ll ask ‘beard, beard, where’s the Jew?’!
This look right to you?
100%. Sad that this is the first article that everyone agrees is true.
As a very chassidish community, they have the right to demand the dress code they see fit. Meah Shearim demands a certain standard of tznius. New Square demands a certain level of tznius. (moderated) has the right to demand you keep to their standard of dress code to join their minyan. There are many other places in Lakewood to daven at every time (moderated) has a minyan. If you are truly looking for a minyan then you will find it elsewhere. If you very much need this place, invest in a hat and jacket.
This is not meah shearim or new square. They came here, deal with it
Yup, I know exactly which place you’re referring to and I have avoided that place since they started hanging signs up because I felt so uncomfortable.
That Kehillah isn’t looking to appeal to the greater community. They are happy to be insulated and have a less busy shul. For some reason- many outsiders find that specific shul appealing…..show some respect and oblige by their standards.
I find that hard to believe considering that they are in a mostly non denominational chassidish neighborhood. Who is their kehila exactly? Do they have enough people from their chassidus to fill the many Minyanim a day they have? With multiple rooms.
It’s a minyan factory, so I don’t buy that argument.
Huh? They are in a VERY chassidish neighborhood that was built for and marketed for them.
Someone else wrote a letter like this here a year ago. The comments were very clear: there are like 2 to 3 shuls in the WHOLE Lakewood/Jackson/Howell/Manchester/Toms River/Brick area that have that sign, and of them, only one that actually enforces it.
One of the other 2 has people davening however they want and no one says anything because it’s just a formality thing.
There are MANY shuls that have minyanim at all hours, though more of them with full lineups for Mincha and Maariv than those with past 9:30 for Shachris.
If this is a big jump for you then you should probably start with
Minchas
and Maarivs
as they are much more available at bizarre times no matter your erratic schedule that day, or where you are at that time.
You will get to daven Shachris with a minyan when you are able to make that transition, especially if you see somewhere that you feel more special davening Mincha or Maariv a bit more than other places.
Then you can see if you can if davening Shachris there too is something that could work for you.
If you jump to do all 3 coming from doing none, AND you live near a place like the discouraging one you described then that’s just going to make you feel sad.
what can’t a shul make their own policies?
This is a private shul,they want to keep to old tradition and out of respect to Hashems house,they feel that this is the kind of the environment they want to Daven.
are people who have a desire to live more of a old kind of life allowed to have a shul??????
I am and old school guy,I choose to daven only in shuls that people come with hats and suits.
To me it’s totally disgusting to see people coming in shul with sweat pants,and some times with very tight pants.
are all this angry guys paying for the shul??
why can’t people make a shul that is more to their yiddishkeit style.
it is actually very questionable the whole davening without a hat.
100% couldn’t have said it better.
Having a rule for hats and jackets is what gets people angry. Where is the outrage when people come to shul with short sweatpants, sandals, etc…
This is part of the problem – the segmentation of klal Yisroel. We keep away from anyone who is not exactly like us. We’ve done with with our neighborhoods, we’ve done it with our schools. At least the shul was the one place where every Yid was welcomed.
There is a famous picture that many of even the frummest yidden have hanging up with the backs of 3 people davening a the kosel. A soldier, a chasid and a dati leuimi guy. That personifies Klal Yisroel. Otherwise all these phrases like “Achdus” and “Kol Yisroel Areivim Zeh Lazeh” just become meaningless.
Does a person technically have the right to gatekeep people from Minyanim? Legally yes, Halachically, you’d have to ask a Rav. But should he is the better question.
Also, if you want to make a small minyan with very strict standards, that is one thing. A minyan factory that services the greater community and also relies on the community for Minyanim is a bigger thing and maybe might even begin to be considered a form of community property.
Maybe you have some point about minyan factory, but the shalom thing is not so simple.
When the Chasam Sofer stood up to Reform, there were those who played the shalom card too. He quoted a posuk, I don’t remember offhand, but the point was that Shalom, while it means peace and not machlokes, you still have to know what is right and wrong. In other words, where do you draw the line on anything?
When a shul makes a campaign to build the building it’s not really private anymore.
What nonsense… When you give to a Hachnosas Kallah campaign you get to tell the couple what to do and what not to do? You get to come in to their apartment ?!?? What are you talking about?!!?!!
If there was a campaign for Hachanasas Kallah and then it was found out that it was to fund a $250,000 wedding and a $100,000 in furniture, people would rightfully demand that they tone down the wedding or they may stop giving and demand their money back.
When you take money from the Tzibur, you lose the full say.
I really dont understand a word you said. Where does overspending come in to the picture? A Shul can go out to the public for donations and at the same time have their own rules or chumras.
Yes, and they are snot saying the person isn’t welcome per se’. Heaven forbid; theyr’e only asking to do this.
I’m sorry you feel that way.
There are 2 parts to this issue (in my view), Halacha and Hashkafa.
From a Hashkafa perspective, if this shul has certain standards, you need to abide by them. You are a guest. Respect your hosts.
From a Halacha perspective, The Shulchan Aruch clearly ruled that you need to Daven with a hat. Although some Poskim may agree with your views that if you never wear a hat and jacket you aren’t required to wear one when davening, the klausenberger Rov (Divrei Yetziv 1:60) and Rav Moshe Sheternbauch (Tsuvas v’Hanhogos 4:26) rule that it’s not permitted even in such a case.
Think for a minute, why do you want to daven with Minyan at all? I assume it’s because you’d like to do what’s right, even though there may be leniencies to Daven B’yichidus. The same should go for a hat.
100%
As the letter writer, let me explain. With Lakewood traffic as it is, especially in my area (and the area of this shul), going too far is not feasible with my schedule.
Also, my schedule is unpredictable and I need the flexibility and later shachrises.
This shul has become the area minyan factory.
Can I find another shul. Yes, but not every day at a time that works for me.
As mentioned, going to davening with a minyan is already a stretch for me. The harder it becomes, the less likely I will end up doing it. Not because I don’t want to, but because I am human.
For those who can figure out which shul I am talking about and have alternate suggestions in my area, I’d love to hear it.
Here is an alternate suggestion, how about buying a suit jacket and hat, and just leave it in that shul, so it’s available for you whenever you come there to daven.
As mentioned, going to davening is already a stretch. Spending 500+ on the above mentioned items is even further a stretch.
But if you would like to buy it for me…
Contact me thru TLS I”ll b happy to help with the cost of a hat and jacket if that is going to help you daven with Minyan and feel comfortable
Thank you for the offer. I really appreciate it.
I thought about it. When I was a kid, we were taught that you wear a hat and jacket to show that you are a Ben Torah. Now I daven and learn every day and keep halacha, but I don’t think of myself as a Ben Torah, at least not the way it is thought of in Lakewood.
To wear a hat for me would feel like a dress up. Like wearing a cowboy hat in shul or a litvak wearing his friends shtreimel.
I don’t think it would be conducive for me if I want to have any form of Kavana while davening.
You are just trying any excuse you could think to not wear a hat and jacket.
So why post asking for tips advice etc… how to deal with it.
It seems like your main goal is to hock against that shul.
It’s not right there, but Barditchev is not too far away. 9:30 shachris. Corner of Birch and Williams. Come in your PJs.
I laughed out loud when I saw “ Come in your PJs.” LOL🤣🤣🤣
❤️
First of all, kudos to you for taking that step and recogni the beauty of davening with a minyan! One Yehai Shemey Rabbah can erase 70 years of bed gezeiras. Lot’s of hatzlocho on this endeavor.
They are trying to maintain a certain flavor that the chasidus has. THEY WILL BEVER THROW OUT ANYBODY FROM DAVENING IN THE SHUL. They just don’t want it to become the local hang-out joint.
Sorry if you felt uncomfortable, as time passes and you become more comfortable going to daven in a minyan, this stuff will bother you less.
Stay strong!
I think they just want the shul to maintain a certain level so they have that sign. I daven there all the time with no hat. Never heard a word. But it def keeps people more respectful when they’re there.
if someone would tap me on the shoulder I would gently sing to him I don’t need your beketche
Interesting that the song don’t need your beketche became some peoples guiding light in hashkafa.
Why don’t you just invest in a hat and jacket and keep it in your car for whenever you need it.
When in Rome do as the Romans
. If you try to get into a restaurant that says black tie only you will have no problem putting on a tie, or going elsewhere. Why is this different?
One question, if you got invited to a black tie affair would you understand that showing up without a tux is rude?
Sorry. Halacha trumps your feelings. R’ Eliyashiv, R’ Chaim and many other litvishe rabbanim all make it clear that its better to wear a hat and jacket than daven with a minyan.
The shul is 100% percent entitled to demand that the decorum of a shul per halacha is maintained.
You start your letter by saying you’re a regular lakewood guy. Sorry, but since when is not davening with a minyon, and not wearing a hat and jacket by davening, regular for Lakewood?
Born here, raised here, went to local chadorim and yeshivos, married here, live her, established a business here. I think I have my Lakewood credentials.
I am vulnerable about a spiritual struggle I have and you sit here knocking me?
Just relax-I guarantee you that for every knock you get, Hashem is going to raise you higher and higher in Gan Eden.
Get over it.
When things are posted on Scoop they will be hashed over mercilessly. People are having a bit more mercy since, at one point, you began to to respond.
BTW, just to explain, when I say mercilessly, I don’t mean without rachmanus, I mean getting to the crux of the matter, without it focusing specifically on one person. Even Shlomo Hamelech had to deal with this. He wrote in the beginning of Mishlei – which much of haskafa – he had to say a long list of credentials: ‘Mishlei L’shlomo ben David, melech b’Yerushalayim’. One peshat is becase when you try to preach hashkafa, people will hash over it mercilessly. But now that we know he was such a great person, we can take it at face value.
I once attended an exclusive club in Manhattan that had a rule that you needed a jacket in order to enter. However, they had a room filled with jackets of all sizes so that if a member or their guest showed up without a jacket, they could borrow one.
If this shul insists on this rule, perhaps they should have a room with jackets and hats of all sizes to be borrowed so that everyone who comes can join in the Minyan.
they do have…
Where?
Haven’t come across it yet.
I know a mesivta that has a hat gemach in dining room for chevra to use for bentching, where it is also proper to wear a hat.
Can anyone chime in whether hat wearing goes by society at large, and if one-hundred years ago it was standard for all men to wear, and now they don’t that makes a difference in halacha?
Not sure where you live but there are plenty of shuls where I daven in Lakewood where there are no such signs and plenty of people don’t wear a hat or a jacket.
I know which shul you’re talking about. They will most likely never tell you anything if you come dressed as you described. The sign was put up to prevent people from walking in wearing tiros and loud t-shirts. It’s unfortunate that some people have no respect for the community that provides the shul for the public.
That’s is not true, they tell you even if you come in white shirt and dark pants, that you need a jacket and hat, they tell you as you leave but they do tell you.
Fun fact – the Shechina doesn’t wear a hat or a jacket. Let that sink in.
Rav Chaim ZT”L said, it’s better for one to daven biyechidus than to daven in a minyan without a hat and jacket.
Can you please send the source for this?
Aleinu L’shabeach – his brother-in-law R’ Yitzchak Zilberstein (shailos uteshuvos in back of Hebrew editions).
R’ Zilberstein tells of a group of 11 bachurim who went on a hike, then were davening mincha, but there were only ten hats and jackets, and they weren’t going to make it back to any town in time to daven with a minyan. They asked what is better – for one to daven without hat and jacket with the minyan, or to wait until they finish, then daven with hat and jacket, b’yechidus? The answer was that rather b’yechidus with hat and jacket.
The Bais Yosef says it’s forbidden to make a beracha in front of a woman wearing a sheitel. Dan L’Kaf Zechus!
Where does the shulchan aruch say that?
Don’t steal my name please. 🙂
I’m just thinking that in out-of-town communities this would never, ever happen.
Putting aside who is ‘right’ or ‘wrong.’
Just an observation.
Amazing that Lakewood has standards
I cannot believe some of the comments here. A yid should be able to daven with or without a hat. It seems the people who run the shul are more worried about their image than what Hashem wants and cares for. “Rachamana Liba Buey”. I always disapproved of those signs even though I always wear a hat and jacket… I would rather they ban the “shuckelers” that don’t say the words and just take up space in the shul…
If someone is only able to communicate by shucking that’s awesome!! That’s his tefilla for now!!!..he showed up!!! You think he doesn’t wish he could do different???who appointed you the shucking czar?
Not really a big deal, you can pick up an inexpensive jacket, (which is what they mean when they write suit) in any suit store or any department store, not to expensive, as for a hat, you can get a pick up one in the same department store not too expensive either, probably get both for under $100.
I am not saying I agree with the policy, but his shul his rules.
There are laws against discrimination in Nonprofits and this would definitely be unlawful.
maybe tell that to the next guy who tells you that you are going to Gehinom for not wearing a chalat.
It is still a private property and they can turn away whoever they want. Regardless whether they make profit or not.
1. I’m a regular working guy from Toms River with a colored shirt on most days, no hat.
I’ve been davening at this shul almost daily for over 3 years. From before the signs went up or after I’ve felt nothing but warmth and welcomed from the kehilla there. The gabbaim got to know me as well as others who are there in a regular basis. Not once was my attire ever even hinted to me.
so I can understand the signs may make you feel awkward but it’s truly not what this kehilla is focused on.
2 while your letter is well written and rational (especially compared to most tls letters) the shul does have a right to have a dress code even if you feel god doesn’t care.
The entitlement! Where have we gone as a nation? (To TYH Land?)
This attitude leads people to demand that others accept their way of dress, their way of talking, and to allow me to scroll on my phone during davening, etc. Do not press your laxity of adhering to the law on me!
It’s beautiful to want to daven with a Minyan, but there are laws of decorum.
Stop being triggered by rules!
The same Shul asks that you not enter with a smartphone. Is that offensive? No! It is simply a request for decorum when praying to the Lord!
Ever hear of a black tie event? You need to follow a dress code to get into certain events. Same here!
And yes, don’t show up in paint-splattered overalls to Daven?
Seriously, everyone wants to be exactly who they are at their level and have everyone else bend to them. What Gaavah!?
If you go to a wedding, for example, and do not wear a suit and tie, it’s disrespectful to the party.
Dressing in a way other than what is dictated by Shulchan Aruch is inherently disrespectful to the Lord Himself. The Rebbe of this Shul understands that people will be triggered and he would like you to grow up!
I mean this with love and care, albeit tough love.
Grow a beard, brother! Respect the Law.
#Stopbeingsotriggered
where is your reciprocal respect for their standards?
We do have some shuls that allow nursing shul (open Orthodoxy)
There is shuls with no Mchitzes,or lower Mchitzes,
some shuls women could come with pants.
Orthodox Judaism which believes in the Torah is all about Rules we don’t see רחמנא ליבא בעי not to have rules.
so whoever feels rules are not part of us is a כופר בתורת משה.
as mentioned here a hat by Davening is a הלכה in שלחן ערוך and a shul is allowed to enforce the שלחן ערוך
First of all I know who you’re talking about and so do probably a lot of other people. Number two there is no reason that this issue has to be brought up in a public forum. Go over to the Gabbai and explain to him the situation.
I’m actually pretty nervous to go over to the gabbai. I’m not really ready for a strong response that I’m worried I will get.
You have an excuse for every suggestion, you are not really looking for answers.
You want to be able to do what you want no matter the situation.
This whole article you wrote is probably just to make some noise.
Again, excuse for every suggestion.
I did not ask for suggestions. If you look at my letter you can see that I said I’d like to start a discussion.
For my own personal issues, there is no reason for me to write a letter to TLS. I can figure it out on my own.
It’s more than that. This is a new innovation in Klal Yisroel and certainly in Lakewood.
We are seeing the community segment, in our schools, who we associate with, live near etc. only those yidden exactly like us. And that has come to mean exactly like us in every nuance. Th shul has always been the exception. The place where every yid was welcomed, no matter who he was and what stream of frumkeit or non frumkeit he was. If someone wanted to daven, he was welcome.
Now that is changing and this shul is leading the charge to now make a large portion of klal yisrael feel not welcome. As we see in Lakewood, when one person does it, everyone follows. And I’m not ok with that.
So when I saw that sign, I felt called to at least do my little part in trying to keep klal yisrael together rather than apart. I feel very disheartened by the comments. I think it may be too far gone here in Lakewood.
Will this letter help. Who knows. But public sentiment is a powerful thing and it’s definitely better than doing nothing.
There are literally thousands of choices/options where to daven in town. This trouble maker davka has to go to that particular Shul??? Even if such a scenario exists, the person should grow up and stop complaining.
Trouble maker? That’s the Shul that’s near him.
(Moderated) is a hailige Kehilla that played a big role in rebuilding yidishkeit after the war. I think they understand a little more than you how a shul has to look. How dare you use social media and “public” opinion. to try to change them.
And based on the stories they tell about that Rebbe after the war, he would show love and acceptance to all, even people doing literal issurim in front of him.
I wonder if the rebbe of that chasidus was asked about it and approved the sign. Based on what I just heard, it was put up by the money person behind the shul, who was described to me as “hard core” Having money doesn’t make you right about things that have to do with Yiddishkeit. Often to the contrary.
Those words “often to the contrary”, is very questionable, is it permitted according to the Chofetz Chaim
זצוק”ל
to use such terminology?
Just for the record The Rebbe Zatza”l of that shul, wrote clear Takanos for when they opened his shul in Israel, where he writes that its Assur for a person without a hat & jacket to daven there.
There was always a
מנהג המקום
And it should be respected
The Minhag Hamokom was to have a sign that people without a hat and jacket shouldn’t come Daven? Their Shul in Europe had this sign too?
No, their shul in Europe didn’t need such a sign as back then everyone realized that to wear a hat and jacket was showing respect to davening.
Don’t look for excuses not to go to Shul! Don’t bash Chasidische minhagim! How difficult is it to put on a hat and a jacket/blazer! I recently bought a beautiful Shabbos HAT locally for a bit over $200. Buy yourself a jacket/blazer by Walmart or anywhere for about $60 or $80. Would you go to your so called business meeetings wearing a shtreimel & beckische; don’t go into a nice chasidische minyan with a shirt like an Israeli settler; Don’t be a “yotzah min haklal”.
I don’t get it. Why does this shul need to cater to your kiruv? I feel bad that you went left at some point, and it’s really wonderful that you are working on yourself to come closer to Hashem. But why does that give you the right to dictate, or even request, that any shul change its standards? You said that you wore a hat at your bar mitzvah, so obviously you’re from the mainstream “yeshivish, black hat” community. I don’t understand why whatever the dress code was in your seventh grade, which you and your parents, I’m sure, agreed to at the time, should be different now. If you eat cholov stam, maybe you should go to all the local restaurants and threaten to boycott them because they don’t cater to your standards. Maybe tell the seforim stores to stock secular novels (clean ones).
We all take journeys through life. But assuming this is real, it reads of tone deafness and lack of empathy.
It’s interesting, I have been all over the world, been to shuls in the frummest of places including bnei brak, meah shearim, KJ and I don’t recall ever seeing such a sign. Not until recently. So this is some sort of new innovation in Klal Yisroel that frankly makes me very uncomfortable. Both personally in my ability to daven with a minyan and globally in the direction I’m afraid the community is heading.
Many shuls have rules by the amud how the bal tefillah should be prepared before davening for the amud.
Some specifically write jacket (this is even in not ultra yeshivish places).
Have you never seen that either?
All this shul is doing is writing it for the tzibbur also.
Have you never seen signs not to use smartphones in shul during davening, are against that also?
Yes, I’ve seen the signs about the amud but never not allowing people dressed differently not to join the Minyan.
It’s a slippery slope. I don’t like where it is heading
Please don’t exaggerate.
I completely understand how you feel. Personally I used to frequent this shul quite a lot until the sign went up. Since then only a handful of times and I try to avoid it like a plague. (Also it’s been written about here multiple times I guess it still gets people worked up)
The way I see it you have 3 choices 1) suck it up and put on a hat and jacket 2) feel uncomfortable and keep davening there 3) daven somewhere else.
Chestnut st shul has M/M and a few other minchas throughout the day and you’ll feel right at home over there. If you want to go with option 1 I’ll happily pay for your hat and jacket (you can keep a hatbox in your trunk it’s not such a big deal)
Chestnut shul is great and I try to go when I can, especially for M/M.
Unfortunately it doesn’t always work for my schedule.
To all those bashing the Chasidish shul, do you know there is a chasidish Rebbe (his son has a shul in Lakewood) that lived in Lakewood in the times of R’ Aron, and was told not to wear his Shtreimel in public.
See Rashi Shemos 30:34.
To all of those agreeing with the letter writer 💯. Is there a dress code that you would agree is inappropriate. Would you approve for somebody to join the Minyan in briefs alone?! What happens if that guy says- he’s offended and will not Daven at all if he’s not counted in the minyan and allowed to be the Chazon. We all have our standards….
I don’t get this issue. Although I daven in this Shul all the time and the sign used to bother me ( Although I daven every single minyan with a hat and jacket as it says in Halacha). I have a few points to make 1) I am there on average once a day, I have NEVER ( and that seems to be true from all comments here that have not mentioned this happening) seen anyone “ tap someone on the back” and definitely not say anything strong to anyone not wearing a jacket. Second as many have pointed out they definitely have the right to sef the decorum in their Shul even if some may think the proper decorum is open for anyone to decide. Third and final I think the most appropriate answer is what Rav A L Steinman ZL said to someone who was complaining to him about a Yeshiva which didn’t want to take his child because of his blue shirt… whats the big deal, about the color of a shirt? Answered the Gadol if not a big deal why can’t you just switch shirts? Although in this case it sounds like the letter writer truly is saying that he would wear the hat and jacket and just can’t afford it I will gladly add my name to the few that have already offered to help him get a hat and jacket.
They don’t kick anybody out for not dressing to their standards, but, maybe they should reword the note to say that they’re advvised that it is nore bekovodik to wear a hat and jacket for davening and that you wouldn’t go see a human king in his palace dressed casually.
If everyone reading this knows what shul you’re referring to I don’t think you should have published your letter complaining.about their requirements. Doesn’t that make them look bad? Are people now judging them favorably? Better to say “it’s all for the good” and find a different minyan. There are over 200 shuls in Lakewood. Or to continue davening at home. You certainly could have consulted a Rav for advice.
My uncle, A”H davened in the same minyan as Rav Yaakov Kamenetzky, zt”l and he told me that Rav Yaakov once saw him davening Mincha! without a tie and asked him where his tie was. Yes, davening in front of the King ideally should be as respectful as meeting an important person.
theres a story behind the sign. supposedly a guy in a colored shirt no hat/jacket went over to the rav of the shul and started screaming at him that he davens to loud and long, so in order to prevent that from happening again they put up that sign.
Nothing personal, but just to add, I was in a hall between Lakewood and Brooklyn that Yidden sometimes use, but many Gentile Weddings. Shmuzing with Gentile manager, he told me that once at a Gentile wedding, a guy walked in with a T-shirt and jeans. Maybe the hall doesn’t exactly have a dress code, but he met him in the hallway and asked ‘are you really going to go in like that? The guy said ‘I was invited, and I don’t have a tuxedo etc.’. Some excuse. But I know you said you wear dress shirt and pants.
The thing is, as someone mentioned, if you don’t draw the line somewhere, some people, sadly, may come in with tank-top and sandals. Scoop went through this with a sign in another prominent minyan factory – they weren’t talking about hats and jackets, they were mainly talking about this. See some geshmake conversation there too: Lakewood’s Satmar Shul cracks down on Tznius issues | The Lakewood Scoop
https://thelakewoodscoop.com/news/lakewoods-satmar-shul-cracks-down-on-tznius-issues/
The current attitude is ‘please respect my feelings’. But you need to know that it goes both ways, You need to respect their requests. In every place there are rules in hotels, hospitals, restaurants, schools and even in famous places like the Taj Mahal that expects visitors to remove their shoes and St Paul’s in London women must wear a hat, people comply to show respect. Perhaps examine your feelings more closely and try to discover why it is so disturbing to you to comply with their request.
For all those defending this, imagine they put up a sign saying that you could only daven in a rekel and chassidish hat. A whole lot more of you would be complaining.
That’s not very far off…it’s a slippery slope.
As the famous poem by Niemoller goes:
First they came for the socialists but I did not speak out, because I was not a socialist…
Kudos to you for trying to bring minyan back into your life. Between you and G-d, He sees that and that’s what matters.
The sign is not meant to keep you and yours out, but I think is more of a message of “in Rome do as Rome does” just as Meah shearim has signs not to enter without tznius clothing.
In that shul, they follow the dress code of a hat and jacket when davening and request that all that want to daven their follow their dress code. Not to shun out others but because that is how they understand in their circles is the proper way to greet the King of Kings.
Theyre not out to exclude you but to encourage those tht want to use their premises to keep to their dress code.
Which is fair. Though inconvenient to those that dont have that dress code handy.
I think ppl that dont feel comfortable there should start their own minyan without that issue, or get a cheap hat and jacket to their liking for use at this minyan. They dont tell you what the hat and jacket need to look like.
And as always…. Hashem needs you, not your bekitche 😉
But it may be worth learning the halachos to see where the sign may be coming from.
Hashem does not NEED anything. That’s avoda zara.
I frequent this shul for many years. ever since they put up those signs I stopped dropping money into the Pushkah. I feel very offended on behalf of the fellow mispallilim who don’t have a hat and jacket in their car. If you have a shul that caters to their own crowd then it fine to set rules. When you have a Minyan factory, that is designed to invite people from all over, you can’t now say only if you XYZ. Can’t have it both ways. Makes no sence to have a minyin shachris at 10:00 but chas vesholom to come without a jacket. Another thing that bothered me very much was the way those signs were placed. They stuck them on to the tables. It was as if they were poking people with it, intentionally. There were more signs about this “Takanah” then there were signs about their fundraising campaign. Plain simply Sinas Chinom.
It’s a private Shul, the only thing poking you is the Daas Baal Habyis hepach Daas Torah.
Learn the laws.
Why cant you have a minyan factory and at the same time have a dress code??? Again, what does having a 10a Shachris minyan to do with having a dress code??? You seem to be in pain but your argument is no argument. On a side note, I do not know which Shul this is, but I see now how people come dressed to Shul which did not happen 20 years ago… Short sleeves reaching above elbow, short or skinny ribbed joggers, no socks…. this is shameful and disrespectful. Yes asking for a hat and jacket to keep to our original dress code dating back pre war is absolutely ok.
guy definitely has a point, after all hes not asking to daven for the amud or even be counted for a minyin he just wants t o join and have the zechus of tefila betzibur why should he be asked to leave??
There is a fad that’s called “chill out”. It basically means that anything that doesn’t say openly in the Torah is only a d’rabonon or only a minhag or only a chumrah. Of course this hashkofoh is traif. This type of people have an issue with anything doesn’t fit in their attitude. They say it’s suffocating and stifling. It’s the same idea with a picture of a child collecting that many have issues with, in a different discussion on the site. It’s the same argument, it looks too chasidish or too frum. It’s not the hat or the tzedokoh billboard they are against. Rather, it’s not chilled.
For many years I wasn’t into wearing a hat or jacket by davening. I’m not saying you should. I’m just sharing what changed my perspective.
I was at a question and answer session with a Rabbi (i don’t recall his name), and someone asked if it’s required. The response was different than I’ve heard so many times:
He asked “What is Davening? And what are we hoping to accomplish?” Davening is a form of Avodah – like in the Bais Hamikdash, and we hope Hashem will listen, accept and answer our prayers. If you’re hoping to get answered, you may want to impress the one your asking by dressing the way He described. What did he describe? He told the Kohanim what to wear when doing the Avodah. Well well, He doesn’t quite say you should wear a black suit jacket and black hat. But He does say have special clothing, and that includes hat. So if we’re looking to get answered by Hashem, we may want to impress him by wearing some sort of special clothing and hat for davening.
It does not say that. I imagine the old hats that people keep in their cars and are brown and dusty are not bakovodik either. Would you ever go in front of a king looking homeless with a hat like that?
Good point.
My hat is super fresh and kept in a hatbox. If you care, you keep your hat fresh and crispy!
#KEEPITFRESH
Interesting.
Grow up. Plus, there are a million places to daven, if your so inspired make it work to daven somewhere else. They have every right to demand a certain level of formal dress.
I as many ppl know which one shul you are talking about. It makes me uncomfortable even though I do wear a hat and suit so I found another welcoming shul in the same area that also has multiple minyanim. The thing is that I need to realize that people have their standards and comfort levels. If the rule was that you can’t daven in short pants or if you don’t wear a kippa at all people would be more understanding. The reality is a certain community created a shul for them to daven and be comfortable. If there is a bunch of people that don’t follow what their custom is then the shul they built for their community won’t offer them the ability to feel comfortable in their shul. Reality is they don’t throw anyone out. They don’t practically enforce it, they just want you to know that it makes them uncomfortable when there’s an atmosphere of dress that they don’t feel is befitting of davening according to their custom. Maybe the same way trump and every other respectful person puts on a kippa when visiting the Kotel, you should buy a hat and jacket and leave it in your car to have respect for the community that built a ship with round a clock minyanim to service you and the rest of the community.
In the winter you can wear any kind of coat or jacket. In the winter everyone is fully dressed. The issue is mainly in the summer. It’s the bad apples of the summer ruining it for the others. But not really. As long as you are fully dressed you will be left alone.
The Beis Hamikdash was a beis tefilah lechol ha’amim. All the nations and cultures of the world were welcome to come pray and bring korbanos. Of course they were properly dressed but only the kohanin had a uniform. And it was actually proper to be barefoot lol.
By shacharis talis and tefillin are a kind of hat and jacket. And shel yad makes a suit jacket weird and impractical and anyways a jacket is not very noticeable if you have a talis. I think the sign is mainly for minchah and maariv. The halachah sugya is only for shmoneh esrei.
So if someone tells you it’s assur you can explain to them why they are just ignorant. And while you are saying shmoneh esrei you will be left alone so there is never really a time that it’s a problem of being confronted lol. It’s funny that there is a room in that very building where they hang out together every morning completely undressed and don’t even have a curtain at the shower. And then they think they can tell people to get all dressed up.
It’s funny that the place with the latest shacharis and maariv around is trying to be the least laid back in one area. It’s also funny that the place with the most non hatted people around has the sign. So the sign is actually basically saying that (someone is upset about it but) this is a place where many people don’t wear hats so naturally you should feel pretty comfortable lol. Also the sign means to daven somewhere else. So maybe it doesn’t apply to late shacharis and maariv when there is nowhere else.
Maybe wear a baseball cap for a hat.
Many places have rules for how the chazan dresses. So the sign is not clear. Technically Maybe it is only talking about the shliach tzibur. It’s probably not what the writer meant but they are not so smart and didn’t explain themselves clearly. Maybe that’s what it means by Daven somewhere else. Somewhere other than the amud lol. Also someone that never wears a hat might be different since the poskim say it’s different.
Also maybe it means that if you don’t wear a hat, then [anyone that is bothered by it should] daven somewhere else lol.
Also the sign says if it’s too hard. So maybe it’s different if you are not doing it because you think it’s wrong which is different than hard.
A freilichin chodesh adar!