I’d like to start by welcoming all the newcomers to Lakewood, Toms River, Jackson and surrounding areas.
Our towns really do have a great infrastructure and glad you can join.
BUT…. (I know I’m not supposed to add the word but, but this is gonna get heavy).
What you may not realize is that until recently there was a certain understood expectation of respect of yiddishkeit in our frum marketplace and places of gathering. Although the whole town is not Yeshiva people, there was a basic understanding that we dress morally as the men and boys work very hard on their shmiras einayim and the world out there is so full of garbage, at least within our haven there was a basic level of coverage so they can be comfortable walking into their local grocery, pharmacy, and Dr’s office.
Recently however, the body coverage has been following the trends of the world at large where there just seems to be less and less of it!
I’m not here to tell anyone rules of how long your skirt (or your wife’s skirt) must be past your knees or how short your shaitel needs to be.
I too struggle in some areas of tznius and don’t appreciate those that are more stringent pushing their views of tznius at me when I think what I’m doing is within halacha.
But that’s the clincher. Within halacha. We all know about covering knees and elbows (and necklines too if I may add).
So can someone please explain why recently some people have decided it’s ok to walk around in (moderated – replaced with ‘non-tznius clothing’) in our kosher havens?
Why it’s ok to be dressed this way while walking into the only safe places our men and boys have to go?
I literally watch the men and boys struggle as these women walk through the grocery and pharmacy. You can tell them don’t look and don’t objectify, but who are you fooling!? In this town – where the male inhabitants try so hard to not be exposed to under-dressed population – those that have come and brought it into our local places are robbing them of their innocence that they desire.
You may not care. But it’s not fair.
When in Rome do as Rome does.
When in Arabic countries dress with respect to them.
And when in Lakewood please dress with respect.
In your own house do as you please. But please don’t be so disrespectful to my husband and sons and the rest of the people that don’t want to see too much.
If you see your wife walking around this way, it really needs to be addressed. Ask your mentor or LOR on how to properly address, but please don’t come into a place without respect for what the society stands for.
A local mother and wife.
TLS welcomes your letters by submitting them to [email protected]
Many of us are native Lakewooders. We didn’t move here for cheap housing or frum infrastructure. We live here because it’s home. We might not be on the same level as our parents but we are frum and trying our best. I personally try to be respectful and I feel for the men that are struggling but I doubt anyone will change anything based on this letter. You can’t change others you can only change yourself.
@Born and bred
She’s asking her request in a public forum to bring awareness. She’s not trying to change others en-masse.
She wants to not sit on her laurels and actually ask the public who wants to help to come and help in case they don’t realize that they’re offending.
Well said!! My husband doesn’t go to Walmart. Now he doesn’t go to gourmet glatt either.
But u have internet
@FYI
Whoopdeedoo, so do I.
Maybe they have a strong filter. There’s lots of different kinds of having internet. Maybe she’s writing this from a pay by minute internet cafe and this is her kosher down time.
What do you have to leitz for?
It’s easy to point what others are doing wrong but don’t the Rabbanim say no internet? So don’t point out what others are doing wrong u can look to yourself to improve
Sorry but this is a super duper dumb response.
Basically if you have internet you are free to do whatever you would like.
👎👎
I have access to one site. My husband doesnt’ use my phone. Thank you for your concern!
I imagine not being allowed to look at trees and everywhere you go there are trees. And on the trees there are flashing lights and flashing horns trying to get your attention. Their is what it’s like.
Rabbi Zecharia Wallerstein ZTL
Attention Men and Boys : WATCH YOUR EYES
TorahAnytime Links
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@Fred
Good analogy. Thanks for the links.
thumbs up
It’s about time somebody said it. It’s a large part of what attracted me here over 30 years ago. I too agree that one in Rome do as the Romans.
You can yell and beg until your blue in the face, but nothing will change.
Would be easier to ask the store owners to make special men’s hours like NPGS main st has or had.
And then they scream “why don’t the schools take our children? They are such innnocent נשמות. Nebach they don’t have a school”. I thank the schools for not taking children whose mothers dress Not-tzniusdik.
You have no daas Torah. I just read how the previous Belzer rebbe refused to call irreligious people “irreligious “ or “not shomer shabbos” . Did u ask daas Torah before posting this comment just curious
Yet the Belzer rebbe still would not take ”irreligious” people into the Belzer Mosdos….
Actually- the ones not being accepted are often dressing quite fine if I may say so. This comment is slightly out of place. Sometimes its the ones with more money that dress this way but get their kids in school while the schools close their eyes!
This has nothing to do with schools…
There are schools that cater to this crowd…
I dress 1 hundred percent fine for lakewood standard, Boro Park and maybe even Willi and still no school… Because the original Lakewood might not have a tzenius issue but they def have a big Gaiva issue
Agree 100% with this letter.. If I may add, the clothing stores have a tremendous responsibility to sell clothing that is appropriate for our environment. Since when are slits okay?!
Not much to do with the clothing stores. We all find normal clothing to be worn. These people dont shop locally
You can get non tzniusdik clothing everywhere. They just get skirts that are too short.
Bsd
U right !!!bh I agree 100 %
Thank you. Well said.
Just pretend that the people you are seeing are in the process of becoming balei teshuva. When someone becomes a bal teshuva and takes things on slowly, first no pants, you don’t cry and say – u must dress completely tzinus immediately. You applaud their efforts. You don’t know who these people are maybe they are balei teshuva.
The only difference here is, is that many of these people used to dress more appropriately and are coming here to get away and are happy to be the way they are now (from personal experience).
I agree with the letter writer. You sound like someone that arrived here within the last few years and are just acting defensive. There is a lot of truth to the letter if you were here 20+ years ago.
The old Lakewood is gone..
Many are born and bred. Many have been in Lakewood for over 30 years, and have no sense of tznius. Stop assuming all those are newcomers. Reality is majority of the problem is Lakewood and Lakewood itself. I saw these issues in Lakewood 40 years ago. Lakewood today is nothing more than a fad or a click. Wake up and smell the coffee, you are part of the problem. Look in the mirror and make sure everything you’re doing is 1,000% above and beyond before telling others to be better. Leave the mussar for the Gedolim.
Lol i was born here but thanks
Or you can pretent they are Yidden who have a Holy Neshamah placed in a human body that craves & lusts physicality. This neshama is crying in pain to her host but she isn’t listening, she’s too busy on facebook & instagram while slurping her colada to hear. Tznius is about personal dignity, humility, & the consideration for the spiritual needs of others. Try to feel the greatest rachmonus for those who are missing these basic middos. It’s impossible to feel attracted to someone who has little self respect or the respect for others.
Really really well said….
Tznius in general is suffering even in the most choshuve parts of our town.
Tznius means modesty and applies to men and women regarding way more than clothing.
We have over the top homes, cars, tzedakka fundraisers etc. It’s not just all tied together, it’s the same thing.
Go to communities where the Dr’s drive camrys, and you’ll see that the women’s dress (even not yeshivishe) is more modest than here. Not necessarily lenth of clothes etc., but the simplicity of the garments.
Anon. You are 100% correct. I lived in a large “out of town” community for a number of years and the wealthy of the wealthy non yeshivish baal habayis lived in homes a lot more modest than many of Lakewood’s yeshivish klei kodesh and their wives dressed way more modestly.
Correct.
excellent!! same person who wrote this letter drives a grand wagoneer and husband drives a tesla and throws lavish parties under the guise of tzedakah and doesn’t think for a second about “the old lakewood” and tznius
@Mayo
You really know that about the letter writer? Or you’re speculating?
This letter is funny. The author is saying it is “disrespectful” for people to dress the way they want to rather than assimilating and following her demands. This is from a community whose fundamental belief is to *not* do as Rome does and instead to set up a separatist society.
When you go to an Arab country, do you dress modestly out of respect for their culture and rules? I’ve seen pictures of OTD people who proudly wear the hiijab when they go visit an Arab country because they’re ‘so respectful’ of other people’s cultures.
If that’s the case, respect the culture of the Jewish people which is to follow the Torah and dress modestly when in a frum community. Just because the Arabs would blow off someone’s head if they caught them in their communities dressed inappropriately and would never tolerate it, doesn’t mean that a person should do it in a frum community just because they won’t die as a result of it.
Halacha is halacha. However there are many gray areas that are hashkaficly correct in many circles but not according to the bmg community. I wear longer skirts. I wear eyeliner. I wear denim. I wear nail polish. I wear sheitels that are a bit passed the shoulder. I have a smartphone with a strong filter. I am from five towns where I was the frummy. I moved to toms river for employment purposes . My house is just as frum and erluch as yours. I am not associated with bmg. I do have my daas Torah who approves of the above. BTW who I asked if I need to dress like a bmg woman. Yes we are balabatish. No we are not shiksas. There are many like me. Just as a side note. My coworker who is a frummy has never made a honest dollar in her life. Talks lashon hora all day. Has haskafos that are terrible. And her husband is in learning. I would never dream to do on vacation what she does. G-d is not there. So if u see us know we are not shiksas. We are people that are brought up different. Grow up. We outnumber you guys big time. Maybe learn what having a Rov is for real. Not jumping to every bais hirah until u get the right psak. Be erluch in buissness. Don’t ba red another jew. Don’t make a chlul hashem. May hashem bring moshiach quick.
She not talking about you. Don’t have such a complex.
She speaking about women wearing short sleeves or no sleeves, open chest not open necks. Short dressed or skirts that are thigh high. I not here to judge but this is not what I would expect a person who has a Rav or is askanaz frum person to dress.
I also wonder sometimes if these people are non lakewooders there are many who grow up in Lakewood. Don’t be so fast to blame it all on the new comers.
Regarding all the haters of non Lakewooders. When you look back at history there were many times that other yidden did not want different yidden living next to them for many different “valid” reasons. We frown on those times in history. An example was the Jews of Portugal where not so welcoming to the expelled spanish Jews
Stay in five towns please. You do dress in a way that is unappropriate. Tell your friends we don’t need them or their money. We would rather have a erluche town than frum shiksas. The vast majority of the oilam is in kollel. Adapt or go to five towns with your frum Zona looking friends. Foi
ATT MODS: wow this is not TLS appropriate especially two days after YK way to much hate
You sound like a total apikores. How dare you call a bas yisroel, a shomeres torah u’mitzvos such a name? You should at minimum be embarrassed.
Nothing in this letter even remotely describes your particular way of dress or ruchniyus level and certainly doesn’t call you a shiksa. Denim skirts and nail polish and a drop longer sheitel? Fine, wonderful. No problem. The writer is referring to modes of dress or more accurately undress that is revealing, etc.
Well said. BTW, that is part of the problem with Lakewood. They know better because they are Lakewood, but they don’t have a dedicated Rav. Having a dedicated Rav is a requirement from the Mishnah, but Lakewood knows better than pirkei avos.
OP is not talking about you. You sound pretty normal.
Halachah is Halacha!
The way you dressed in the 5 Towns might be Ok THERE because that is the local standard. When you move to a place with a higher standard like the Lakewood area, Halacha requires that you adjust your dress to the local custom. Even your Daas Torah from the 5-Towns will agree with this. Certainly those flaunting all basic standards of tznius have no right to do so over here.
My Rov told me that since there are many that dress the way I do bmg can no longer claim their standards as being the only standard. The same way we have pizza stores, pools etc. I do have a Rov unlike many here sadly. In regards to the hater that told me to go back to five towns. With all do respect. Maybe explain to me the memes with guys in kollel asking their wives to dress proactive. Sadly three are kollel woman dress like Hollywood figures. Their husbands ruchniis is in the garbage. All a show all a style. Let’s talk basic halacha before bonus. Like offices in lakewood where kollel wives work and hang out with married man by their lunch break. I and many others would never tolerate that. Be real and erluche not fake and holy.
False
I lived in the 5towns for 2 years and absolutely loved the community and the overflow of chesed that went on there.
I would say that it would be so wonderful for you to take the next step and learn the sefer Oz V’Hadar Levusha, where it explains everything about modesty, the reasons why things are allowed and not allowed, and the hashkafos of modesty in the most beautiful and inspiring way.
I struggled a lot when first learning the sefer, and ended up changing the way I dress in a huge way. I had to get rid of thousands of dollars worth of clothing that I spent a lot of time and effort to add to my wardrobe, and it was a lot of work, and many many tefillos to gain a love and appreciation for modesty.
I can tell you though, that looking back now, I would never ever exchange my modesty for anything in the world. The protection, the hashgacha, and the bracha that came into my life as a result of growing in tznius was worth everything I gave up and changed. I would tell you to try dressing completely modestly (according to the sefer Oz V’hadar Levusha) for 2 weeks, and see if your life isn’t a different life during those 2 weeks.
I can tell you that my life is not the same anymore since I started following the sefer without looking for any loopholes or ‘do I have to do this’. And I don’t mean just in a spiritual sense. Literally my life is a different life. I used to always have problems whenever driving, that I was always getting pulled over by cops and getting tickets, sometimes for the dumbest things. Every once in a while I would get into a car accident. I would always get anxious when making a long drive, davening that nothing should happen.
After I started being more careful with modesty, these things stopped. I literally never got a ticket or pulled over or had an accident since then. And it’s more than that, I literally feel like the mitzvah of tznius is protecting me, and even though I went through many challenges and struggles in the last few years, which B”H have gotten much better and are almost completely resolved, I can tell you that I look back at those last few years, and I can literally point to all the times that things could have ended up in a terrible way, or in a way that would not have been so fun for me, and I see how Hashem protected me and guarded me the entire time from all the outcomes that could have ended in a way that would not have been so happy for me.
So I very much encourage you to look more into the exquisite mitzvah of tznius, and see what the reasons are why a woman should not wear denim skirts. btw the sefer never says a woman can’t wear eyeliner or nail polish, actually a woman is allowed to, just everything within the guidelines of halacha. also, just so you know, when I started learning the sefer, I owned a few color denim jackets that I absolutely loved to wear, which were not cheap, and it was one of the things that was difficult for me to get rid of, as I really loved those color denim jackets, and they were a big part of my wardrobe. However, I did it, and I can tell you that Hashem paid me back over and over again for that sacrifice, and there are many times when I don’t know what to wear, that Hashem opens up my eyes and helps me see how to match up my clothing in new ways that are so pretty that I wouldn’t have thought of wearing a certain top with a certain skirt but they go together so well.
Of course, it’s your choice what you want to do, and you should do what works for best for you, I just wanted to let you know that there is more to grow in this beautiful mitzvah.
Rabbi Falks seder is a wonderful sefer that was accepted by the bmg and ultra yeshivish community. The vast majority of out of town communites didn’t accept it as their guide. I saw tremoundus bracha after I gave up a job in a lakewood office where the men and ladies would chill together including at company events. We are proud to be unapologetic of our hashkafos. Period. We aren’t yeshivish and don’t fake who we are. My husband won’t make a move without our Rav. I am shtieging by being real. I learnt in a bais Yaakov seminary in israel where rebbetzen, married to a big Rov who is a posek for Anglo Americans dresses the way I do. She is way more erluch that many who follow that sefer. If it’s your hashkafa I get it. BTW if u shave your head bald and wear a Burke u would see a bigger yeshua.
I don’t appreciate the sarcasm, as my post was not in any way putting you down or contained sarcasm in it. You’re very into being ‘real’ but it seems like when someone is also real with you, but it doesn’t line up with your hashkafos, or you’re not ready to accept or make any moves or changes, than suddenly being ‘real’ doesn’t actually matter, it’s what works for you that matters. That’s what’s real.
So being very real here, the reality is that you’re simply interested in stating why you’re way is okay, and giving justifications as to why it’s okay, and saying that there’s no need to grow in an area that you’re not interested in growing in, because you’re comfortable and complacent with the level that you’re at, and are not interested in change, and this is just a way to soothe your guilty conscience and make you feel better about what you’re doing.
So let’s be real. That’s the reality, not the excuses about Rebbetzins and their husbands and everything else.
Hope you have much hatzlacha, and may Hashem bentch you with the yeshuos that you need, and everything else that’s good. Chag Sameach.
This is not considered growing according to my Rabbi. It’s a culture thing. I didn’t like the fact when u went in to Rebbetzen mode when I have a daaas Torah. How do you feel when some rebtzen tells u u will have…. If u shave your head. According to my cousin from Williamsburg many have seen nachas kids etc from shaving their head. It’s not a matter of growing. It’s a matter of having a daas Torah guiding you. I don’t have room in my life for everyone to tell me how to live. I have my derech. I am more than happy if u foolow any Rov. BTW I think you would see more… If u were Dan lekaf zechus others. Almost every person who grew up andfrumms out becomes a missionary for that community. You have a particular hashksfa great so do I.
This is. Disgusting So sorry to bust your bubble. I live in Chicago we didn’t accept that sefer. Nether does many schools Baltimore, queens, Passaic. Thank you for letting us know we don’t want to grow because you know we don’t want to grow. You choose your way of life. You have no right to impose or lecture based on your chosen belief system. My friend Williamsburg said that if I go and stop wearing robes I will have a child. Didn’t work. My Rov was upset at this person. No mekur. How dare they. Just had a baby after going back to robes a year ago. I don’t see how that helped honestly another neighbor of mine stated that if we give up texting then we would have a kid. Didn’t help. Did that for a full year didn’t work. Went back to texting. Again my Rov was mad. These extra I did that didn’t seem to help me one bit. so at the end of the day you can take on any chumra that you want and you have the full right no one is stopping you, butplease understand that different communities have different standards. the same way you wouldn’t feel comfortable if somebody from Kj came over to you and started lecturing you you know that your husband has text on his phone there isn’t a single family that hasn’t given up text that has seen major issues or you know if I were you I would not go ahead and eat lettuce in the restaurant because it stopped eating and had major success. at the end of the day this book is a very important resource and as a back by many many rabbis agreed but also understand the same way the chassidus lifestyle was not accepted by everybody the Yeshiva’s lifestyle was not accepted by everybody either. Just to knock people who are not part of that community you do have a guiding source is stupid and foolish and it makes no sense. nowhere in the Torah does it say that we need to listen to one particular Derech. my husband happens to come from a chabad. We are shluchim. I’m originally from lakewood bmg family. BTW. I am way frummer now than I was with that sefer sorry. We have our derech. You don’t need to accept. It’s still a derech. we’re very frum andwe’re very sincere. We do the best that we could do AND GROWING BH. BTW never once it was a mentioned and any of the speeches from our kehilla that get rid of nail polish longer wigs etc. Yet we are a very growing community. I’m disgusted that someone spoke to do what they believe is a growth in their life but leaves that that’s the only way one can grow and that is the way it sounds like you had some serious brainwashing.
Hi. I just wanted to comment on the above post. As a girl I followed the seder fully. No one wanted me as my father couldn’t give support. I got a Rov that understood me. I became more with it and started dressing long skirts denim nail polish etc. I also took on other kabalos like shmiras haloshon. Not to make machlokes etc. Two months after I did this I was redt my husband. This is after not being rest a shidduch for four years. He comes from a similar situation. His father is a Dayan in a prominent bais din. He only was willing to date me because I didn’t dress like a rebbetzen. BTW we are very frum. My son is from the top boys in brisk. He married my daughter in law who comes from Baltimore. She dresses justike me. Way more frum than the average girl.
That’s very nice for you but no one knows why and or good things happen to us, and there’s no way for you to accurately conclude that good things happened specifically because of your tznius improvements.
Have you had absolutely no bad things happen to you since then? I don’t believe that’s possible. So then how do you explain that?
It’s nice for you to take on Improvements but I don’t go for all the segulos people promise will help this or help that. It’s just not true. Hashem gives everyone nisyonos, hardship, pain, no matter how tzniusdig or frum they are. Matter of fact tzaddik I’m have much more difficult nisyonos than regular people. How do you explain that?
So you’re saying that everything got better for you as a result of improving in tznius isn’t realistic or true. Hashem decided to give you good things, that’s a bracha. There’s no way you can say it’s a reward for your tznius, Hashem doesn’t give people their s’char in this world.
Once again blaming outsiders. Let me tell you the facts. Most of the people you see were at some point affiliated with BMG. This town has introduced so much outside influence within the yeshiva community. Thinks like meat boards, sport leagues, eating non cholov Yisrael are not from “Brooklyners”. It’s time to look at the mirror and take responsibility for our own, and stop blaming a fake force.
Correct. Many of our mosdos even promote these things when they make siyumim. A mesivta siyum that I attended was way over the top. Tznius all around is lacking – not only as a result of those coming from outside.
The husband might have been affiliated for a short time with BMG because that’s where society sent him, he never became part of BMG & he left as soon as he respectably could. His wife isn’t from Lakewood & she never had anything to do with BMG. This is about the secular world’s values penetating the Frum community even in the most Chareidi cities like Lakewood. What follows? Substance abuse, divorce, OTD, Suicide, inapropriate viewing addictions, Etc. & this is happening right now.
I like to think that we are regular frum but my husband and bochurim no longer feel that they can shop in gourmet glatt for Shamiras einayim purposes. And I feel it is wrong for me to send them to do my errands under the current circumstances. Oh well.
So move to Skvere.
Communities change all the time. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not.
Jackson & Tom’s River have changed. Some say for the better, some not.
I’m not sure how people can think with all the changes & growth Lakewood has gone through in the past few decades that we can preserve in amber our beloved Lakewood lifestyle of the past for eternity.
“the only constant in life is change”
Lakewood hasn’t been Lakewood since the late 70’s. Once the ikkur shita of Reb Aaron stopped being followed everything changed. Reb Aaron held that after learning a few years one should go out and become a marbitz torah. He never wanted BMG to become a place to live. He moved the Yeshiva out of White Plains NY for that reason. A small little shtetl is what he wanted. One boys school, one girls school, a grocery store and a mikvah. Not much more is needed. But everyone else knows better than Reb Aaron what makes a true ben torah. Uch un vey on us.
Hi. I am one of the managers at gourmet Glatt. Curious to know why our store keeps getting negative flak. These shiksas are all over town in any grocery. Including our competitors. There is no single grocery that doesn’t suffer from this machls to some extent. Saying that it’s by us more is not true and is lashing hora. As a side note, we do ask u to enjoy our Yom Tov Specials. Come in and enjoy the savings.
It seems like someone was giving an example of a grocery (a place where everyone goes – not womens clothing store, not non-jewish supermarket…) and used Gourmet Glatt for no special reason. And then others continued with using the same example.
Be complimented that when people think grocery they think Gourmet Glatt!!
Do you have a dress code?
Hashem should bentch your store with so much bracha and hatzlacha, that everyone who works there should get a raise in salary by Pesach BE”H!!
FYI I love shopping in Gourmet Glatt over other grocery stores, because everything is always neat and organized, and the place is always kept clean and brightly lit, and everyone there is so nice. Also Gourmet Glatt has such a huge selection, and I can always find most of what I need there. I do most of my grocery shopping there, and I don’t know what people are talking about how women dress there, I don’t really see such a huge issue. Also, Gourmet Glatt is a really spacious store, so people can easily avoid other people if they wanted to, and don’t have to worry about them being right in their face because there’s enough room to maneuver around them (as long as it’s not jam packed like right before Yom Tov, but even then, you can always go shopping early in the morning and avoid the crowds).
Also it’s very convenient that the wine store is right in the same place as them, it’s makes the shopping so much simpler, I don’t have to go to 5 different stores to get what I need.
The times that I was in other grocery stores, I never did my full shopping there, because they’re just not Gourmet Glatt. I’m not saying this to be nice or anything, I really mean it, it’s just not my store, and they don’t have everything I need like GG does, and the energy of the place is just not upbeat as it is in GG.
The letter writer is 100% correct in the point, although may have gotten a little sidetracked with the “blame”. It has gotten to a point where people are blatantly not following Halacha. Short sleeves? Not just sleeves accidentally pushed up, but short sleeves. Seriously? What excuse are we trying to answer up? And it may not be the out of towners, but even if it’s Lakewood people who have become more open, face reality. The only reason people are still here, (or moving to TR, Jackson…) is because of the infrastructure of Lakewood. So why can’t that be respected? I too walk out of certain grocery stores with that same bad feeling. Just like I find it hard to shop in target (where everyone isn’t Jewish and can dress as they please…) I now find it hard to shop in certain stores in town. And no, this isn’t about being Dan lkaf zchus those people, we’re not trying to change them, but rather saying respect us.
I recently saw a nice Jewish family travelling somewhere and the father was carrying a shtreimel box and had peyos rolled up behind his ears and his little son also had peyos hanging behind his ears, but his wife and daughters were wearing skirts above the knees and leggings and the mother’s sheitel was quite long. Is this what Chassidus is coming to also?
The best are the Syrian Jewish community. They stick to their Mesorah instead of making believe they are someone other themselves.
I guess if it’s a kollel husband and Zona wife it’s OK. Bmg should throw out anyone who’s wife dresses like that. Announce they have no connection with him. Disgusting.
I don’t want to cause machloikas, Chasidish vs non-Chassidish, but as a Chassidishe living in a primarily non-Chassidishe neighborhood I see the non-Chassidishe women dress like this. The Chassidishe women in my community, and in most Chassishe communities that I’ve seen, (KJ, Williamsburg, BP, etc.) do not wear long wigs, the girls don’t have long hair, they do not wear leggings and short skirts. I’m not saying I never see such “Chassidishe women”, I say I rarely see them, while in other crowds…
Frum women and girls, regardless of affiliation or community they live in, should not be wearing long, zoina length wigs AND hair, tight clothing, short skirts (wearing leggings do not make the chazir skirt kosher)…
I am an outsider who goes on this site just to try to understand what is going on in Lakewood. I was at Trader Joe’s in Brick this past Tuesday around 1pm and was surprised that a Jewish woman was walking in the store staring at phone screen and almost walked into a fruit display. Also at Ocean County Mall lots of Jewish men and women on phones not paying attention to their children. Yes, the women have begun to wear form fitting clothes. So what I am saying is that we non Jewish are seeing Jewish men and women behaving like us. It is very interesting to watch this happen over the last 50+ years I have lived in Ocean County.
Totally written by a frum person, but love that you correctly picked a name from an older generation.
Hello Ester, not sure if you will see this response. I am named after my Aunt. I also named one of my daughter’s, Rose, after my grandmother. In my family we often name our children after older relatives who really mean something to us. I was born and raised catholic and am now a practicing Episcopalian, very active in my church for the last 25yrs. Have a great day.
Moderating what she actually wrote to generic “non tznius clothing” is extremely stupid because now we do not know what she is actually talking about.
I think she made a nice request in a nice way. It is right after Yom Kippur , everyone can look to better themselves in one way or another. Tizku L’Mitzvos
To the writer of this letter,
This letter was very well written and also you were very careful not to hurt the feelings of other people, even the ladies and the girls that are dressing differently, you were super careful not to use even one word that maybe maybe maybe might hurt their feelings-lots of credit to you.
Any comment here in this article that it appears that the person is saying something negative about your letter-DO NOT WORRY: After you read that comment that is not positive, No. 1 Please forgive that person.
No. 2 : Please say a short prayer to Hashem, that Hashem should help that individual in all areas.
Thank you so much
Know what’s funny.
In my neighborhood there are a handful of individuals who can better themselves in Tznius.
Every single one of them was born and raised in Lakewood. It’s the silent joke by us.
I don’t understand what everyone is getting all bent out of shape about. I don’t think it’s a big deal or a bad thing for a frum woman looking to protect her family to ask other frum yidden to follow basic Halacha outside the house. She isn’t telling anyone what color skirt to wear, just politely asking frum women to please follow Halacha…
Not her place. I’m sure if I spent enough time around her, I can find an entire host of issues that she violates. In public as well. People need to spend more time looking in their own mirrors and less time looking out the windows.
Everyone has valid points on each side depending on perspective. However, this conversation has nothing to do with the letter. Take a step back and think about what she is asking – irregardless of who she is, her internet status, where she is from, etc… Saying there are other issues doesn’t dismiss this issue. So no one should get better in any area as they have other deficiencies?? That is the yetzer horah saying – give up as you can’t be perfect!
She is asking for a level if tznius that no one on this conversation is disputing. It doesn’t matter if the person is originally from Lakewood or from somewhere else or if there are other things that need to be worked on within the community. It is simply not tznius and shouldn’t be done anywhere – but definitely should show respect to a community that was created, and tries, to uphold a higher standard.
So are you demanding non-frum Lakewood residents who frequent local businesses to adhere to tznius too?
This whole concept is very strange to me.
I lived in a large religious community for most of my life.
Go to the Kosher supermarket and look around. Chasidish & Yeshivish women & girls are covered head to toe with every Chumra.
But there are also plenty of “Traditional” Orthodox & Conservative (& a few Reform) women with hair uncovered, short sleeves & pants. The girls from this group I won’t even try to describe the lack of tsnius.
How do the Choshuva Rabbonim that live here survive going to the supermarket?
Because 1. It’s no different than what they’re exposed to on the street (this is actually better than the street).
2. Baruch Hashem women who dress like this are concerned about Kashrus.
3. Baruch Hashem it’s a special community where those on the fringe of observance are comfortable being amongst people much Frummer than they are.
A relative came to visit & we went to a breakfast place Sunday morning. They said, “It’s so nice seeing so many different kinds of Jews in one place.” There were NY Chasidim in full garb. A table of Yeshiva guys in their black hats. But there was also tables with Modern Orthodox, Conservative & Reform families
Why not appreciate the Shalom & Achdus this helps create? When you’re all there for the same reason it builds a level of kinship which may just being them to your level of observance.
Yidden who are shomrei Torah umitzvos should have absolutely no shalom and achdus with yetzer hara!!
I’m so happy about this letter.
I’m a frum married man and for the past few months, every time I enter a supermarket here, I remove my glasses and keep my eyes to the floor.
I feel like I’m navigating a spiritual war zone.
It’s not just the blatant halachic violations of tznius that the letter writer mentions.
It’s the more subtle issues, like extremely form fitting clothing, ostentatiously glamorous sheitels, full faces of makeup, etc.
Like some commenters here, my wife also feels guilty sending me on errands in this town.
There is very little regard to the awesome struggle frum men have to keep our eyes and minds clean and pure.
Incidentally, there’s a wonderful organization called Guard Your Eyes that is running a fundraising campaign right now.
I participate in their forums. There are thousands of frum men on the forum who are all working to better themselves in this area and are silently fighting this extremely lonely battle.
This very issue is a topic that often comes up on the forum, and it is something we have to content with on a daily basis.
The sad part is that it’s not the internet, or the filthy streets in Manhattan: it’s our own supposedly frum and safe enclaves that present the greatest struggles.
So thank you very much to the letter writer and for TLS for bringing awareness to this issue.
These comments are all over the place about the what, how, this level, that level, this Chumra, that Chumra, this Sefer, that Sefer.
I think we can all agree that the only way to satisfy everyone is for women to wear Burqas when out in public. Black for those at that level. (Bideved) Dark Blue for the more “Modernisha” who still struggle with tsnius. (All Poskim agree dark green or maroon Burqas are Assur as those colors attract unwanted attention).
shame on you then on this holy days you
are busy making leitzunes of a erleche yid
who dosent ask any frumkiet just simple tznius to keep himself (ourself) pure
Maybe the stores should have a pile of uniforms to offer anyone to use while shopping!!
Also have you heard of delivery. Most stores have that. You won’t need to go the store
As A frum lakewood man, I appreciate the challenges we all face. There are organizations like GYE, though for the daily problem, something like Vayemoen, a daily boost of chizuk, really works wonders.
I wonder why there is not a “sister” organization, extolling the beauty of tzinus to the frum woman, appreciating her challenges and pushing her/giving chizuk to move forward. No, this would not solve the problem, but it is a step in the right direction
Women should dress with modesty others dress horrible
I think I have a solution all can agree with. At the entrance there should be a rack of extra long lab coats like Doctors wear. Anyone not dressed to our standards can be given one to wear while shopping.
Who will pay for this?
Simple, companies can buy ad space on the coats. Where the name usually goes can instead be “Yankle’s Furniture store” or on the back a larger ad for “Blimi’s House of Knickknacks”
It’s a win-win-win for everyone.
Many of us “lkwd kids”, who are written off by how we look, care enough to keep kosher homes, respect our heritage, etc. We could be anywhere, but we choose to remain close to home. You don’t like how we dress? Screw you. We’re all adults here, and we aren’t responsible for your yiddishkeit
Wow, how was this post even allowed? This is very disrespectful. As I wrote in another post here, we non Jewish are beginning to think that Jewish are becoming more like us. My young adult daughters would never write something like this that their elders might read.
Are you equally concerned with the man above who called a woman in a long sheitel a zona?
AHT, if you “respect your heritage” how do you dress contrary to halacha?
This has nothing to do what a city an individual lives in. every person in their own way needs to set what they feel is proper morals as to how they are in all aspects of their lives.If you are so uncomfortable with the way people are , and your husband shouldn’t see them. have your groceries delivered. Don’t go anywhere for that matter because you can go anywhere not to specifically to supermarket and you could have a problem with the way another person dresses carries himself, etc.anywhere. And no, I am not making fun or being sarcastic. I am saying anywhere you go in life you can stumble across something that to you might be below your standards of what you want be exposed to or your husband or your children. Today or supermarkets Pharmacy’s ice cream shops, you name it they all deliver. am I not suggesting you be a hermit, and not Leave your house. however, there is a solution to every problem. That being said, maybe this individual who goes to the store is finally keeping kosher maybe the struggle before was they didn’t keep Kosher at all so maybe it’s actually a blessing that they’re in the kosher supermarket, because prior to that, they were not keeping Kosher at all this is quite possible. No one knows were what somebody struggles are. These individuals have the same, right shop in the supermarket so much as the next person. So I am not by any means condoning people dressing inappropriately. I certainly do feel that you need to understand that people are on different levels in life and if you’re so uncomfortable with that you can figure it out another way to have your groceries or whatever. How can you take your children to a park or to any store not food specifically or anywhere how can you go anywhere in life for that matter because you might stumble across something , that is on settling to you or uncomfortable for you. That is why you figure it out for yourself and you figure out how to navigate it in the world that we live today.
I take offense with the assumption that the newcomers are the problem.
perhaps some outlets should be provided to the children who grow up here (apart from shopping and eating out).
regarding your infrastructure: there are no traffic lights, no dentists, few doctors, not enough schools, un-monitored politics to get into them, full year waiting lists for special education services. what infrastructure are you referring to?
How wonderful are the majority of Bnos Yisroel who dress tzniusdik, it brings the Shechina into our midst.
As for some of us who are not completely following halacha and taking liberties it’s often because of the exposure to media etc and the current climate of “no Judgement’ which intimidates anyone from speaking out.
I have witnessed in women’s clothing stores a very common condition such as someone trying on clothing
and then pulling it as tight as possible and declaring it needs to be taken in…often the mothers try to protest but are vociferously over ridden.
Just one of the problems we face today.
Even more than the seriousness of our men having to navigate the challenges in our own religious spaces is the fact that we want protection from The Ribono Shel Olom and I’m not sure that some people realize that lack of tznius in any form is playing with fire.
Yes we all need to work on improving ourselves but the letter writer is speaking the truth how can anyone argue with that?
The SY way is the right way. Yay.
Just came across this and I’m really not understanding a few things. If someone is doing gilui aroyos shficus damim and avoda zara you don’t say anything to him because you violated onaas devarim that day? If that individual then starts lighting your neighbors’ houses on fire and running their children over with his car you also don’t intercede because you paid back a loan with interest to another Jew? There is no mitzvah of tochacha? Obviously don’t say a davar she’ino nishma but this letter isn’t addressed to any person. This isn’t even tochacha, this is just how about respecting the customs of a place, not hurting others in a public space because you are spiritually hurting them? At leat the goyim who do this we don’t identify with, but our frum brothers and sisters we do and when the community standards are lowered that impacts people. If mostly everyone were to walk around in public only in bathing suits that would have a significant impact on the remaining few. Do as you please in your own home but don’t shout profanities in public, don’t act like a vilda chaya, and don’t dress like you are in a swimsuit competition. Those few guidelines seem pretty basic, because we know those things would denigrate all of us. The only question is at what point are we walking around naked and at what point are we modest. Here is what I think the letter missed, the people that dress in such a manner (assume for now sleeveless and mini skirts so it’s pretty clear cut, then extend to whatever else…) clearly don’t care about others and most importantly really don’t care about themselves. The idea is to be oggled and thus get external validation that way, to fit in and thus feel like they belong, to not feel empty and purposeless. They couch it under feeling good about themselves and not being told what to do and being normal and not so fanatical but the reality is that this what makes them feel alive and distracts them from the empty and lost and pointless of their lives. So obviously what others would like takes a huge back seat to all of that because the alternative is feeling dead and this makes you feel alive. Now the people who are affected unfortunately very often suffer from the same, if you are happy and content and leading a joyful life with meaning and growth then what others do and say and how they dress has almost no impact on you. Especially those who don’t keep what you would call halacha, you don’t identify with them and don’t care what they do or how they dress or act. Think the Satmar Rebbe during WWII. You are on a mission of growth and self demand you have your friends and role models and so on. You don’t get impacted by all the irrelegious people who eat on Yom Kippur, though you feel bad for them and wish they wouldn’t and would like to help them if they would be so inclined. Same here. Unfortunately, when you are empty inside and your religion is dead and is only dogmatic you need to have causes and your kanaos to make you feel alive and have your victories and triumphs. The healthier approach is to be happy with you are and not identity with those who walk around uncovered and help them if they are so inclined but otherwise you are on two very different journeys. The animals in the zoo also don’t wear clothes and neither do the dead people in the morgue. When people are not acting in tzelem AND demus Elokim then their bodies are just afar me’adamah, they are just anatomical skeletons layered with some flesh on top, soon to be maggot food, walking around stripped of all the beauty and majesty that Hashem put into bnei adam, specifically Chava when He braided her hair. They have ruined all that by strutting around as pieces of meat for the taking and even lowered their level of creation, and none of that is something any ben aliyah should impacted by or really even care about, life is way too short.
Quite the in-depth psychoanalysis of a woman dresses they way she does. Perhaps because that’s how the world dresses or she feels it makes her look good (not in a negative way) or just finds it comfortable.
I’m more shocked & confused by how many men (or their wives on their behalf) are totally thrown into a tizzy because they see a woman with her elbows bared or a skirt that’s a little shorter than your norm.
Tznius is a core value in a healthy Jewish community.
With your shallow answer you are spitting in the face of halachah and disrespectful of a community that followschalacha. The elbow is an ervah that has to be covered and if the “skirt that’s a little shorter than your norm” (according to your words) doesn’t cover the knee, then you are excusing blatant disregard for halachah. You are being disrespectful and rude if you are flaunting halacha in a community that adheres to it.
Really it’s the wigs
If married women only wore tichels everything would change drastically
As a wise Rebbetzin once said -tznius starts from the head, if the head covering is immodest everything else follows
This is really what happened. As the wigs became longer and more and more natural looking all other areas of tznius went downhill.
There is major klipa on married women’s heads and their thinking is totally blocked.
If women would return to covering their hair properly like Jewish women did for thousands of years the frum velt would look very different…
“…there was a certain understood expectation of respect of Yiddishkeit…”
There was a certain expectation of dress code.
Tznius is not Yiddishkeit.
The people who have moved into yur neighborhood may have a higher standard of ethics and ben adam le’chavero than you do, in ways that are as evident as dress.
I’d say, welcome your neighbors.
Look aside at the trappings.
Kshot atzmecha techilah.
Tznius is not Yidishkeit?? Then you don’t know what Yidishkeit is about.
Tnius is not Yidishkeit?! Then you don’t know what Yidishkeit is all about.