It’s been quite a number of years since the “Shidduch Crisis” became a hot topic. I read all the articles, heard all the stories, but never thought it would affect me. Over the past bunch of years, many people have tried to come up with different solutions, but as it appears to me, those ideas were here today and gone tomorrow. Sadly, I have learnt recently I would not be spared. Not only would I not be spared, but that my crime of having a daughter would be used as a weapon to extort me.
Allow me to explain.
My daughter came back from seminary in June of 2025. After Succos, my wife and I took her to meet a few reputable shadchanim. All of them were very polite, asked her a few questions, and all ended off by saying something to the effect that when they would receive a yes from a boy, they would let us know.
A few months went by without a single phone call. I called all the shadchanim again, and they all politely told me that as soon as they would receive a yes for my daughter, they would let us know. After that, it was back to radio silence.
A week before Pesach, we got a call from a Shadchan that a boy had given a “yes” to our daughter. The Shadchan told us to let them know within 48 hours if we were interested, or the boy would move on. We felt bad calling people and taking an average of 30 minutes of their time a week before Pesach asking for information, but we really didn’t have a choice. We liked what we heard, and told the Shadchan we would like to move forward.
At this point, it was the week of Pesach, so the first date was set for the Sunday after Pesach, and we were all very excited.
Motzai Shabbos, less than 24 hours before the scheduled time for the date, the Shadchan called. She had a nervous edge in her voice, and she was speaking a little fast, so I knew something was wrong.
“Gut vuch Rabbi Fishman. The other side just wants me to go over a few details with you. Nothing out of the ordinary, just regular standard stuff, they just want to make sure we are clear.”
“I am listening,” I said. “Go ahead.”
Then off she went. “Support starts at $2,000 a month and is expected for 10 years. At the birth of each baby, support goes up $500 a month for each child. So for example, when the couple has 4 children IY”H, support will be $4,000 a month.”
I felt like dropping the phone. This couldn’t be real. My daughter had waited 6 months to get a date, and then less than 24 hours before the date, the boy’s side was making impossible demands of me.
There was no way I could make such a financial commitment while still having multiple teenage children and tuitions to pay.
“I don’t understand,” I said. “My daughter wants a boy who will learn. She understands the financial undertaking she is accepting on herself. She has a good job now, enough to support a young couple. She has a plan to advance her career and make a larger income so her husband can continue learning. Of course, if they are short, I will be glad to help out, but in no way can I commit or afford the numbers you are mentioning.”
She answered as follows. “Rabbi Fishman, you have to understand, your daughter wants a boy who will learn Leolam Va’ed. For every 10 boys who I have that will actually learn Leolam Va’ed, I have 100 girls or more saying they want a boy like that. It’s supply and demand, the only thing that makes sense for the boys who will learn Leolam Va’ed is for them to go out with girls whose fathers will understand the zchus they have, and be willing to support this life of Torah the couple wants.”
“But isn’t this extortion?” I asked her. “If the boy wants to learn, I’m sure he understands that the household is dependent on a single earner and willing to make certain sacrifices to live this lifestyle.”
She gave a nervous laugh. “Rabbi Fishman, I see you really don’t know how this works. Today’s couples don’t sacrifice. They need houses and cars just like everyone else. Your daughter wants Leolam Va’ed, so the way it works now is ‘TG’ gets Leolam Va’ed. No ‘TG,’ no Leolam Va’ed.”
“TG? What’s TG?” I asked her.
“You serious?!?” she exclaimed. “TG stands for Torah Gedula. The boys want to learn, but life costs. They need a house like everyone else, they don’t want broken down cars. They have plenty of people who are willing to support Leolam Va’ed, so if you commit to support, yes; if not, they move on.”
I wanted to tell her to drop the date, but my daughter had waited 6 months for this, and I didn’t want to make any rash decisions. I told her I would get back to her shortly.
I called the boy’s Rosh Yeshiva, and I was shocked to hear that he wasn’t only aware of the demands of the other side, he was promoting it.
“This is the way of Lakewood,” he told me. “The girl’s family supports no matter what.”
“I don’t understand,” I asked him. “My daughter is making $80K. That is more than enough for the couple in their first year. She has plans to further her education and advance her career. Why am I supporting them if they don’t need the money?”
His response was, “If they don’t need the money now, then they will put the money towards the down payment of the house. My talmid is a top boy. You should be honored to have the zchus of supporting him.”
I called a friend of mine and asked if this was normal. He told me I have no choice.
“What are you going to do?” he asked me. “Wait until she is 23 and bite the bullet? Bite the bullet now and save yourself the heartache.”
I called another friend who was learning his whole life and recently married off a daughter. He told me, to my surprise, that he had to take on a tutoring job for the first time in his life to support his daughter and son-in-law.
Even after hearing all this, I refused to move forward with such extortion. I spoke to my Rov and he agreed. With my Rov’s advice, the response we gave to the other side is that we would not be making any commitments for support and they can back out if they wish. The Shadchan gave them our response and the date was cancelled.
Thankfully, I raised my daughter well enough that she understood and was completely on board with our decision and our response.
I was forced to come to the sad reality that not only have we not come up with a solution to the Shidduch Crisis, but we have turned it into a weapon to extort the girl’s family and frighten them that if they did not commit to unrealistic demands, they would never get married.
This past Nissan started off very hopeful. Many of us believed this might be the Nissan we would finally be Niga”al, but how can we bring Mashiach if we have sunk so low to extort one another in the name of Torah?!?
Can we truly believe that these “extortionists” will be the ones to carry over the Mesorah to the next generation? Is this really what the Ribono Shel Olam wants?
I hope my letter raises awareness and that we can all get our priorities back in order to finally bring Moshiach.
Moshe
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Seriously, your daughter is back from Seminary for a year, and she’s making 80K a year? Is she selling Marijuana, or is the whole letter an exaggeration?
Idiot
Another STUPID comment. Off of where do you scrape these people?
Its very simple. This is not extortion.
The fact is, that Bachurim DO need money to learn. And no, the 4k a month is not a luxury. Usually, an 80k job is not nearly enough for a family of 6.
Thats why they request support.
So whats the problem?
How do I know this? I’m a young fellow with a small family, I had a younger brother who wanted to learn in Kollel for even just a few years. He got engaged to a girl BH who’s family does not believe in support.
My Parents are unable to support. So my brother was ready to go to work. Guess what. I support him. I cannot really do it but I eke it out trying to make it work, so that he can start his married life a
“Al Hatorah v’al Ho’avoda”.
So you want to know why people ask for support? Because of this. No, no one is DEMANDING support, thats a semantic silliness meant to turn sensible requests into something it isnt.
The fact is, Yes, a couple needs a car and an apartment, they need clothing and food. All this costs. And today, one income is very rarely sufficient.
In your case where the boy seems to be someone a lot of people would look into, why should he NOT ask for support so that they can live like a mentch. Its your daughter after all. And if you cant do it, you need to readjust expectations.
All this “they are extorting” nonsense is simply a distortion of the reality.
Maybe its about time to go out and get a real job.
Work is not a dirty word
Some people actually go to college and get a degree! Not everyone is a lazy Bum…
Absolutely disgusting. If all these big long term “learners” actually took in torah, they would make sacrifices to sit and learn. And the “rosh yeshivas” pushing this should maybe go learn some more about sacrificing for torah before teaching talmidim. Unacceptable extortion
just btw i see from experience the shver that has less money has more value for torah and does everything to take care of theyre kids
I don’t know if I would call it disgusting. Let’s see, besides “supply and demand”, as they called it, if people are really doing this – giving this much support, then they are. If boys really think they can get it – and they are, so what’s the issue?
After everything is said and done, everything is hashgacha (Divine Providence) – most chiefly shidduchim (matches), as the seforim say. Don’t worry.
There is plenty of divorce in our community over financing not actually being there. The guy not actually being a real learner, only discovered when a month after the chassunah, he’s not out of bed before 9 am. Etc.
pretty dumb reason to get divorced…
Does that also include the mandatory visit to all US National Parks during Shana rishona? These phonys are busy traveling the country, davening after the zman biyichidus in their Airbnb. Wife with the baseball cap and husband in the tan khaki pants. Holding hands publicly in Kentucky, assuming no one they know is watching them? Is this what the shver is supposed to pay for?
since you do that doesn’t mean everyone else does that!!
Touched a raw nerve, eh?
Where is this “learner’s “meseras nefesh for Torah? Only everyone else should be moser nefesh for him???
And this is a Ben Torah? And this is proper Hashkafa?
Any bochur who learned by a Rosh HaYeshiva that is a talmid of R’ Aaron ZTVK”L would never have such a hashkofo.
When my son was in Shidduchim, my Rabbeyim told me that if you have a choice between 2 good girls, 1 wealthy and one not, if your son wants to learn for a long time, always go for the not wealthy girl. They know how to keep their husbands learning.
B”H we went with that hashkofo, and we are seeing hatzlocho with it.
STOP DATING LEARNING BOYS THEN
Halevay they’d be seruiusly learning
Please. This is not a ‘top’ boy from a top family. Don’t worry for a minute or give it a second thought. Hashem will take care of your daughter
What’s the difference what kind of family or boy? This demand is crazy!!!
Make not of the boys name….. see where he is 5 years after his chasuna…. Guaranteed he’s not going to be learning full time anymore….
the ones who are still learning 5-8 years after their chasuna are not those who have these demands. They’re the ones who were in it with sacrifice from day 1. I see it in my family, my neighbors.
I think you’re making things up. Im
in the shidduch world for a long time. No one asks for $500 additional per kid. You would make a better point without exaggeration.
Is this true?
Today the demands and rules are insane. Every guy is trying to out do his friends in what he can get from a potential Shver.
What happens after 10 years?
They probably renegotiate the contract with they’re lawyers
Shver retires, goes back to full-time learning and becomes patur! Similar story with Shach and Taz. (One was F.I.L, one was S.I.L, FIL promised dowry, but then finances took a turn for worse, and couldn’t afford as good quality meat as before. SIL too him to din Torah – that his learning may not be as good as before as doesn’t have same nutrition. People were surprised about it, and the FIL won. Ppl asked SIL why he had done so; answered that knew FIL was in the clear, but b’dinei shamayim was not so simple, so took to din Torah that would pasken is innocent, so even b’dinei shamayim would be in clear.
It was the Bach. Excuse my ignorance but I’m honestly not sure the connection.
Most of the guys with the big money demands are barely learning when they enter shidduchim. let alone 3 years later. Kal Vachomer 5 years later, etc.
It’s nauseating. I highly doubt that this is the way of true Ovdei Hashem. Thank Hashem that Chasidim don’t behave like this.
Is this real or satire?
This is the reason for the so called “shidduch crisis”
This is NOT the norm please delete this letter.
It’s becoming more and more popular every day.
This is a load of nonsense. First of all, why does your daughter need you to take her places. It’s quite possible that when they saw that a 19 year-old girl who just spent a year away from Home still needs her parents to drive her to meet a shadchan They tried and tried and tried to wrack their brains to come up with an idea for her, but to no avail. Secondly this 48 hour thing belongs only to your imagination and does not exist in life outside the movies. Lastly no Schadchan in the history of Schadchan’s has ever agreed to be the useful idiot to make demands like that.
There are definitely more, but this letter made me feel dumber for every second I was reading it that I had to stop, I do hope someone will take over To point out the fallacies and stupidities that are bound to exist.
Most gorls don’t go to meet shadchanim on their own. Especially when coming from out of Lakewood.
After reading your comment, I found it hard to believe that you could get any dumber.
Well I hope from rock bottom, that you can only get smarter from here
Yup! Welcome to the shidduch crisis of everyone needing a long term learner!! Just ditch it and youll get a baal middos for so much cheaper!! Trust me its worth it!!
This is not extortion. If your daughter is making $80,000 a year, why can’t her salary be used for the $2,000 a month arrangement? It doesn’t necessarily have to come out of YOUR pocket. If this is what she wants, what she was taught in seminary to support a full time learner, then it’s the package deal. This has been going on for the last 30+ years. Even in Eretz Yisroel with struggling families, parents put away money each month since the child is born to afford a down payment for a Dira. Otherwise, yes, she will get lesser shidduchim or have to settle for a short term learner. Speak to those in the Parsha who married off children before cancelling a prospective match.
Thank you for talking about this.
boys are told to only go out with girls who have money.
as an adult, I see that the friends who married into money were the first to leave learning. They were pressured to join the family business, etc.
the ones who married into people with no money are the ones whose wives make it work, are used to sacrificing for Torah, and are learning shtark many years later.
these rebbeim that you speak about need a reality check.
They weren’t pressured to leave learning. They were pressured, because they weren’t learning full time any way.
I can say from personal experience it’s not always true. At the end of the day in many cases, if the in laws don’t appreciate learning, they will look at the SIL as a schnorrer after some point regardless. And if they are machzhiv it, they will go above and beyond their commitments.
You unfortunately got stuck with a mentally unsound shidduch thank hashem that he saved you. I married off 2 long time learner sons I made no demands they offered what they offered and we never bargained further there are plenty of normal grounded people for your daughter stop hyperventilating and wait both of our sons married 22&23 year old girls they are way more mature and actually have a nest egg saved up it’s a win win
I realize you’re exaggerating a bit, but…..You should publicize the name of that arrogant narcissistic family. Why would any sane person want to get involved with such trash?
You seem very curious over a piece of lashon harah, maybe when you publicize your name and advertise your interest in aveiros they will release the name but until then the name stays private for obvious reasons!!
Your story sounds a bit extreme but sadly not totally off. The perpetrators of this travesty and the only ones to point fingers at are the Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbeim who promote this. It is all their fault. However, the good news is that Hashem runs the world and not them. So hold tight, keep davening and trust that your day will be ok.
By the way, I have a daughter over 30 still single, who owns a business and has 10 employees working for her. BH she has used her extra single years to the best of her ability and has accomplished so much. She can’t wait to get married but until then, she will not allow anyone or any situation to control her happiness.
#1 Maybe she can help out with the support issue for young couples and in this Zechus she’ll find her Zivug.
#2 This is what the system has prioritized – full time career women instead of full time housewives. The results you can see for yourself…
If you would realize that this is an entitlement problem then why should you fund it.
People who learn dont demand things like that unless they are so narcissistic and they believe everything belongs to them.
Supporting son in laws in learning has been going on for generations, with a break after the Holocaust in order to build up Klal Yisroel and Yeshivos.
Supporting learning was for a year or two max. Until the last 50 years. Only Yechidim she’biyichidim, were supporting longer then that. It didn’t exist.
Today everyone thinks of themselves as Yechidim. Herein lies the problem. How many Gedolim has the Yeshiva system produced in the last 30 years?… Torah U’Gedulah isn’t a fit for everyone.
100 percent with you that is wild!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow Good for you for stopping it in its tracks
who wants such a. It and Mechutunim?!
sickening already! Maybe the boys should go work and Support their father in law?!
Outrageous!
THIS US CALLED TORAH LISHMAH?!!
PS Your daughters Shiduch was destined 40 days before birth
With HaShem’s help she will find him!
Actually 40 days before the creation of the vlad (Yetziras Havlad) not before birth (Yetzias Havlad) which is really about 9 months before birth… But your point still stands!
I feel bad for your daughter…
PLEASE tell me that this is a joke. Because if it is not, my hope in humanity was just been shattered.
I can lend you a broom if you haven’t got one. Whatever confidence I had in the shidduch system was swept away in shatters years ago. Was it the RY who lied to me about a boy who HE KNEW was chasing an aishes ish? Was it the Rockland shadchan who collected a few hundred dollar fee (2001 money!) to meet a girl 21 year old girl and ‘keep her resume on file’ and never return phone calls? Or the wealthy father of a chashuv lakewood bachur (I guess they’re all chashuv once they’re ‘in the parshsha’) who told me without a hint of busha that his son told him oifen und grub his first criteria in a shidduch is the girl has to be…DROP DEAD GORGEOUS!!!
BH, HKBH has shown us that wonderful shidduchim come from Him alone and can happen in some very strange ways. (One bashert grew up nearby, my wife knew our now machatainestah, the father and I knew each other, many mutual friends, he had met my child as a child but I didnt know his even existed.
When the RBSO was ready, and not a second earlier, my kid’s second grade teacher thought of the idea.)
Get a life stop being so bitter.
Bitter? Bitter about what? I’m thrilled how things have turned out.
HKBH protected us and guided us in ways that allowed us to make great shidduchim so far, bli ayin harah, without having to get too burnt by some shady people.
With 3 daughters in shidduchim, I definitely understand how difficult, isolating and hurtful it can be. But after 6 years of having children ‘in the parsha’ i have bH never been exposed to anything remotely similar to the circumstances in this letter.
This letter is 100 percent true. 90 percent of the girls hi quality girls are still single …because their parents are hard working middle class ppl…
and these girls make the best wife’s and mother they are talented hard working happy not spoiled ppl.
when will people stop chasing the long term learners already and just marry a baal middos!! those 90% of girls would be married if they didnt care so much about their name and married a ben torah who works CHAS VESHALOM or is CHALLILA a short term learner!! But its not their fault its the mechaneches from seminary who brainwashes them that this is what hashem wants them to do Kee L’Kach Notzartah!! The seminary Mechanechesses are the main root to this whole problem!! Wanna Marry off your daughters? Dont send them to seminary and youll save money on seminary and even more on your son-in-law and your children will actually be HAPPILY married!! But no! Lets feed into the society’s garbage and then point fingers because were all just to lazy or scared to break off of todays stupidity and its much easier to just be a victim and cry!!
The seminaries that parents are paying $20,000+ for are preaching “Marry a full time learner”. They have to teach that marrying a Ben Torah can also mean Kovea Itim L’Torah. The social pressure is the driving force behind this institution. Make the right choice what seminary to go to instead of doing damage control afterwards for years to come…
The yeshiva system would also need to instill the value that you can be a Ben torah while not learning full time
Phew!!
All true. It’s the first time we experienced this, my son bh is a great boy and his rosh kept pushing us to ask for more and more support. Bh we told mechutan it’s fine, none of us know what life brings and if one day he can’t, we will worry then
And you still want him learning there? From a Rosh that cares more about money than midos? If we weren’t sheep we would all pull our boys out of institutions that teach them to demand money for the privilege of marrying them. And then perhaps we can finally have better boys that aren’t spoiled and entitled and prevent many divorces.
The problem is that basically every single rebbe/rosh tells their talmidim the same thing. Maybe not 100%, but over 90%.
Says the guy who spoke to maybe 0.0001% of them…
Awful!
Maybe it’s time we tell young women it’s ok to look for a young man who has a career, or a realistic plan for one, instead of a boy who is demanding tens of thousands of dollars simply for existing.
While we’re at it, we can incorporate the idea that you can be a serious Ben Torah while still having a career into our chinuch system. But I won’t hold my breath.
But when there are girls looking for boys with a career they get turned away from every Shadchan.
Fake news
1000% Couldnt agree more!! We need the teachers morahs and Mechanechesses to drill this into the girls heads that a baal middos is someone you want to marry and a LT learner is someone you want as a chavrusah and if you get it as your husband then you happened to have gotten lucky! And they should have chazaras hashiur every day reminding them this point! Maybe even teach them a song (like they do with the presidents) explaining the difference between a Baal Middos and a long term learner…
Unfortunately, this is not a joke. Although most people wish it was. It is a very sad reality and is not even sustainable for most Torahdik people nowadays. I don’t know what the answer is but this is definitely not what H-shem wants! Adam was cursed “Bizeas Apecha tochal lechem”. It’s a husband’s job to support the home. No demands on the wife or their family!!! Is this concept parading as authentic torah???
I don’t think this is the case by the heimishe chassidish Long term learners
Are you chassidishe?
Of all the things that didn’t happen, this is one of them.
Maybe not exsctly like they wrote. But more then likely majority of the story is accurate.
“Rabbi Fishman”, are you a balabus or in “klei kodesh”? If you are a balabus, then yes, I do believe this kind of extortion goes in in shidduchim. Not to the extent you wrote it, you seem to have embellished the story a bit, but yes, balabatim are expected to pay big bucks for a serious Ben Torah. However, klei kodesh families are NOT held up for this kind of money. Yes, they are still expected to support (for those wondering it’s more like $1500/month for 5-7 years, and many give less too). I heard Shloime Lewenstein say (on a podcast) that 80% of metzuyanim marry into klei kodesh families, so don’t worry, you will marry off your children to bnei Torah without the big bucks.
This is true! Our tachshit of a son only wants Klei kodesh and we obviously don’t expect exorbitant amounts, and we will help as well (it’s our zchus! ) . His Rosh yeshiva told him that to stay in learning forever you don’t need a rich shver, only a girl with the will and ability to make do. We are considered more of a balebatish family(upper middle class) and no one ever asked us for anything that this letter describes. More for each kid?? Never heard of such a thing. Offer normal support (which is usually rent at minimum.) and with her ability to earn money she will get a great boy, not a delusional overgrown baby.
Yes they are. $1500 for 5 years is insane. I couldn’t maintain that for a single month.
It will be extremely difficult to find someone who expects nothing, $1200-$1500 is probably the minimum at this point. People take on second jobs, or if you cheshban what you are spending on your child living at home (especially in the case of a boy, tuition is usually 1k a month) it can equal out. But if you really cannot do the minimum Hashem will still send your daughter a shidduch.
Honestly at this point living expenses are so high that most people I know give between $800-1k for their boys in addition to what the girls family gives.
If this letter is true it’s totally disgusting, just like we lained in this weeks parsha תועבה היא of which he can learn all that he wants but HaShem doesn’t want his Torah.
I think unfortunately there’s allot of truth to this letter but not all true: No young girl returns from seminary and earns $80,000 a year! The normal support demands are 2 years to 5 years, 10 years would be a big chutzpah .
The Rabbonim should make a takannah that no one is allowed to guarantee or promise anything except support at the beginning as needed.
And boys need girls as much as girls need boys; the girl has to like and be proud of the boy as well, even if the boy says no support at all, if she’s not fully excited about him forget about it, she’ll find already.
as a nurse can be making 135000 or more in about 2 years. Accounting can make nice money quickly. There are office jobs paying that much as well
And how will this couple learning fir ever with $2k/ month plus each child make Shiduchim for their children since they won’t have $2k a month if he’s not working at some point?!
I hear that people today don’t want cheap cars etc, but I’m baffled by the piece that even a learning father had to get a job to support. Huh? But if he’s learning, why is he required to get a job more than the son-in-law?!?!
Just a few years ago, BMG’s parking lot was full of beat up cars, if you want to learn, that’s what it means NOT luxury.
We can debate the level of sacrifice we should expect of people who are sitting and learning, but this is in no way extortion. Nobody owes anyone a date and you have no claim on a boy who can make his own decisions.
Society and the yeshivos are nonstop lavishly celebrating lomdei haTorah all day and instead of it inspiring and encouraging people to learn, it creates an entitled generation ( with many young rebbeim and roshei yeshivos) believing that all the success of others is in their merit and as such they deserve to be sponsored whatever food they want and all must bow before thee.
There used to be a siyum hashas every few years and it was special chizuk.
Now every year there are multiple events teaching people that they are the one and only and since they are special they can leave all their snackbag wrappers on the floor ( or rebbeim leave a huge mess on their table)and expect others to clean up after them.
So take a working guy. Case solved
Also by chasidim the girls have the complete upper hand , so take a semi chassid.
Girls and their parents can and should mobilize together to say no to this.
If your are a long term Shadchan like your user name says then why do shadchonim turn away anyone who is looking for a working boy?
Actually the shadchanim like redting those girls because they are less common and BH lots of normal Bochurim fit that description!
I never did.
Yes, but then you have to marry a chassid
So based on this letter ,
Is it every girl who got married in our community had to make this financial commitment before the first date ?
I really hope this didn’t happen the way it’s written. But one thing I can tell you, that we people who Iive in brooklyn, are not like this. I have married off metzuyanim, and have girls married to metzuyanim. I never said no to a shiduch because of the amount of support. Not because I’m rich, but because we know that that is not what makes a marriage, nor are there expectations of a fancy lifestyle. If one is truly a metzuyan in learning, they wouldn’t be asking that. Come to brooklyn where true torah still exists
she doesn’t need to go out the first year back from sem, let her save up and you can use the money for support, plus less age gap
I just want to say something to the letter writer and that is, this boy clearly is lacking in Emunah and Bitochon and definitely lacking in good middos. Yes, he may be a top learner and think the world of himself but if he had a little Emunah and Bitochon and if he had good middos he would have said to himself, ‘you know what, I cant do this to a girl less than 24 hours before a date… I’ll go out and see for myself and if I like the girl, the RSO will take care of the rest’. The fact that he could be so insensitive to dump a bas yisroel less than 24 hours before a date just because he didnt get the financial commitment that he feels he deserves tells me that this boy is lacking basic middos – never mind his learning… and therefore he is definitely not for your daughter and most definitely not worth the money he thinks that he’s worth!
Wishing you besuros tovos bekorov!
It’s not necessarily the bochur, maybe his parents
Good point, but then the argument can still be made who would want to marry into a family with in laws that can be so insensitive to a girl that they’d turn her down at the last minute only because her parents couldn’t promise the exhorbant amount being demanded.
Look in different circles. This is going on in very specific parts but stay away from them. There’s a whole other world.
This is 100% on you.
How in the world were you so oblivious to the realities of the world that this came as a total shock to you?!
The numbers and structure you are discussing are a bit more than I’ve seen commonly, but are not so far from the norms as to warrant this wild letter.
Not only that, but I’m fairly certain that if you’d been well informed as to the norms, you would have gone into the conversation prepared and pushed back in a manner that would have actually furthered your interests instead of sending you off into a rage of righteous indignation.
נדויניא has been part of the process of שידוכים for thousands of years. It’s not extortion and it’s got very little to do with the “Shidduch Crisis”.
Are you going to be just as horrified to discover that marrying your daughter off will cost you nearly $100,000?!
I mean that. Between a Lchaim, Vort, gifts, clothes, trousseau, gowns, the actual wedding night, and Sheva Brachos you should expect to spend (depending on the size of your family and the choices you make) a minimum of about $80,000 but probably closer to $110,000.
As far as solutions to your current predicament go, I’m not going to tell you that your daughter needs to change her standards, but perhaps she should starting putting away a large chunk of her income to be her own support since you clearly cannot provide that for her (either because of income/lifestyle, or because of an emotional block).
Why are you lecturing him? Who do you think you are? Btw. your numbers are way off and so are your facts…
Look at the monster we created here !
They get told in high school that they have to go to seminary. That’s- $40,00 today for that year.
Now. In seminary they get it drilled into their heads that they need to take a learning boy for ten years at a cost to the parents of $2-4,000 a month, or she goes without a date for years.
Nice going, folks……
Yup People are finally beginning to see that it all starts in seminary!! I’ve been screaming this for years but you cant fix stupid!
No need to call others names.
The “rushing” described in the letter resembles a scam. It’s common for scammers to use tactics like “you need to act right now…” and people got scammed like that. Even in a “supply and demand” world, mentchlechkeit is a necessary ingredient for healthy relationship. When I got service from Microsoft (which is not struggling) they called me the next day to ensure that I was satisfied with their service. Ben Torah should be no less in caring…Derech eretz KODMA leTorah. Hashem should help you find someone suitable, who would appreciate your daughter.
That is definitely extortion. There are all types of people out there. No need to paint society with a broad brush. Remember Chazal said “Hizhiru m’bnie eniyim, Shemehem teitzei torah”. Keep an eye out for the children of poor homes, from them Torah will come. If your daughter went to a very expensive seminary to learn about pashtus, and the Chashivus of a “serious Learner”, then you will need to spend some money on your eidim. If you are simply machshiv torah and are looking for a talmid chachom for an eidim, you will be surprised. They won’t demand much of you.
working boys, don’t give up, in 30 years you will be a “rich working shver” and all the metzuyanim will form a line to marry your money.
Lol great way of looking at it!!
That doesn’t really help, look at the wealthy, they don’t find metzuyanim for their daughters.
Unfortunately, it is a self-made problem among many other self-made problems. It’s time to promote an erlich boy who plans to support his family while being kovaia itim, as it states in the kesubah. The forever full-time learner shouldn’t be promoted as an ideal for everyone.
Another issue I have is parents allowing schools to promote values that aren’t the same as their own. My children were always aware of when my values differed from the school’s. I know schools hate this, but I am the parent, and no school is 100% aligned with any of our personal value systems
Totally agree!! The only problem is that the backbones of today seem to be made out of jello because noone knows how to raise their kids these days using their own common sense and going against the tide where it makes sense! The second an issue rises in the system they quickly hurry to change the world as to continue following the Tide yet just turning the tide to their interests, instead of manning up and teaching their own children not to be like everyone else and start valuing true values! In the times of noach everyone was all wicked yet Noach did not fall for it! Noach Ish Tzaddik! Mordechai did not follow the thousands of Yidden going to the party Hence Mordechai HaTzaddik!! But today EVERY Yid is a big Tzaddik so you must follow everyone obviously…
There always extremists in every situation. But don’t learn the hard way like I did. Dont assume anything and talk about support. Married my son off to a 23 yr old. She came with no savings and no support.
Terrible. He should divorce her and take someone better. What type of daughter in law comes into family with no money or support? How can she even be a mother and a wife like that? This is not acceptable.
Although your being sarcastic still Rabbi Avigdor Miller Zt”l used to say the word Divorce should not be thrown around lightly and definitely not mentioned in ones house!
Midvar sheker tirchak. This applies to the letter writer as well as TLS for publishing it.
Grow up
I have nothing to add to this great letter. I will mention that these are the same “rosh yeshivos” who destroyed the summer camp experience for everyone, with their selfish self aggrandizement agendas.
Agreed!!
This will implode when these TGs have their own daughters in shidduchim and are suddenly thrust into the “rich shver” role without the riches
In our simple family, my parents had no issues marrying off the girls. They also made 0 demands for the boys. We now have 2 girls and 5 boys married off in the family.
When my sisters were redd to guys from families like ours, they had no problems getting dates and were married within a year of seminary. My parents never spent months waiting for dates, despite not having anything to give. Sounds like this a problem in certain circles only.
When one of my brothers got married, his future father in law sat down with my father after the lchaim, with a long list of what he could give. He was all nervous that it wouldn’t be enough. My father told him he wasn’t asking for anything. He could choose to give what he wanted. This FIL was shocked, but it was just my father putting his money where his mouth was. My brother has now been in Kollel over 10 years and they make it work and live just fine.
As others have said, it sounds like a self inflicted issue.
Another thing , Kvod Reb Moshe Fishman,
You mention that you took your daughter to meet Shadchanim but you are extremely vague about what you asked them for at those meetings.
Did you ask for a fine Baal Middos that will be good to your daughter, or,
did stipulate to the shadchan that he needs to be the kind of boy who just happens to be the type that is in a position to make the big money demands that your telling us happened here….
Very convenient how you leave that part out.
I have a ‘metzuyon’ of a bachur that is in shidduchim, and no we do not have such demands. There are plenty of boys that will take a girl who is making a decent salary and wants to support a long time learner, along with the parents support of apporiximately $1500/ month.for 7 years. I never heard of this before.
I bh married 7 children boys and girls and never encountered such a situation and neither did my friends. This is,a great AI story.
Totally made up story. Having dealt with shadchanim for many years they do not use stupid words such as TG etc .
Shoduchim are hard enough no need to add some baloney stories and no need to publish them .
Don’t worry, this was written by a “top boy” who doesn’t know what to do with himself because he’s burnt out already one week into the Zman. Too much time sitting around with friends who are also bored and need some excitement of getting under people skins.
A top boy is someone that is erlich, frum, has good midos, will get a job to support his wife and family and learn torah in his extra time. Lakewood people have priorities so mixed up, it’s so sad!
So called ” Rabbis ”
Then we wonder
This is nothing new. I am married almost 50 years, and money was demanded even then. It wasn’t called support, but a many yeshiva boys (with the blessings of their rosh yeshiva) asked for large “nadin”.
@moshe, go to different shadchanim, network with friends and family, and most importantly, daven. Our Tatte in Himmel will answer you.
Good luck.
Fradle
I initially wasn’t suspicious of the story, presented as true, outlined in the letter. I had no reason to be, since my exposure to the matters the letter discusses is practically non-existent. Reading the comments (which, together with the letter itself, I find fascinating), I’ve learned that fellow readers, who presumably do have knowledge about the cultural matters the letter discusses, question letter’s veracity. Reading the letter, I found it odd that the letter writer referred to himself as Mr. Fishman (or was his title Rabbi?) and signed his name Moshe–which, to me (I’m not of your religious community but have exposure to it) seems like the sort a fake name one would imagine for a Jewish Orthodox man. Of course a fake name does not necessarily discredit the legitimacy of the substance of the story. But then there’s also that 80k part. I cannot imagine a teenager or any person without a degree (and even then, it would be specific majors) or without expansive experience earning an 80k annual salary, least of all a teenager. Those who are more familiar with these matters surely have other, better ways to asess the letter’s legitimacy.
Get rid of BMG‘s freezer, and a big part of the problem will be resolved. The boys also need to go to Israel a few years earlier.
I’m a shadchan for the last few years and never once in my experience… did someone use any numbers or language similar to this. Please don’t judge from this experience.
Hashem should help everyone find their zivug.