Letter: A Frum Supermarket Shouldn’t be a Fashion Show

Attention TLS readers. If you are a Bas Yisroel who is aware of Tznius and dresses according to Halacha, you can skip this letter.

This letter is addressed to the women who think a Frum supermarket is a fashion show.

What do I mean?

I honestly haven’t been in a grocery in probably over a year. I work and my wife does most of the shopping via an app, and for the couple stuff she sometimes misses she goes to the grocery for.

What I didn’t realize was the shock I would be in for when I did go to the supermarket last week.

To preface, I’m a regular Balbus who works in the city, and I’m not some head-in-the-sand guy who isn’t aware of the world around me. And I have struggles every day like many others.

That being said, I was quite shocked when I was met with sights I would have never dreamed I would see in Lakewood. I won’t describe the Issurim in dressing that I witnessed, but I will just say it was something I don’t think Lakewood has ever seen until recently. Why is it okay for you to dress in a grocery as if it’s a gym or a fashion show? Do you not realize the Micsholos you’re placing in front of other shoppers? Where is the Heter for this?

Again, I’m no ‘Frummy’ like some would call it. In fact, I wear blue shirts on weekends and I’m not a typical Yeshivish looking person, but I’m a man who is trying to do the right thing.

In fact, I came home and told my wife that I Bli Neder will not be shopping in local groceries anymore unless they give an option for separate men’s hours. I know some are probably thinking “this guy is an extremist.” No, I’m not an extremist. I’m someone who has enough of struggle in my workplace and don’t need it in my local supermarket.

And if you’re a woman reading this, I implore you to take a hard look at yourself and ask yourself if you fit this description.

Thank you Scoop for allowing me to share this concern with your readership, and I hope it will at least make an impact on those looking to do the right thing.

A regular working Lakewood guy.

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      • It’s important to understand that libido varies from person to person based on their biology.

        While some individuals may struggle with this more than others, it’s perfectly normal either way. It has nothing to do with Yiras Shamayom or self-control.

        On a communal level mems hours is a good idea.

        For the yachid Vayimaen and the positive vision book is helpful.

        Either way you are normal although there is extremes listed in the DSM on both ends of the spectrum (hyper and hypo) which can benefit from professional help.


        • As a woman I would like to add that it can be an issue for us as well.
          As we can also be nichshul from the yetzer horah that other untzniusdike woman and can then caus mabul level avaireah!

  1. Wow! very impressed with your zehirus in shmiras anayim and your thoughts on the matter.
    Unfortunately, the people you are describing would answer you back and say “so don’t look!” as if all us men have the ability to remove our eyeballs when we need to! SHAME ON ALL OF THESE WOMEN AND THEIR HUSBANDS TOO! They are all chotei umachti es harabim! If they dont appreciate Lakewood standards then get out of my town!!

    • Well honestly do you think it’s right to tell other women how to dress? If you have trouble with urges or feelings maybe you need to stay out of the stores. Shaming women has never been right and it’s certainly wrong to demand others dress to please you.

      • @yaakov
        The way people dress has an affect on those around them and on community standards.
        We all have “problems with urges”.

        using your logic, we should legalize those fringe elements who are petitioning for the freedom to not be dressed at all! After all, what right do we have to tell others how to dress.

        Shaming women is right if what those women are doing is shameful, just as shaming anyone who does something shameful is correct. That is the nature of shame after all.

        Your silly twist of “demand others dress to please you” is quite abhorrently cynical.
        demanding decency of others is not requesting them to please you.

        • @midnight
          How about shaming men who can’t seem to control themselves? Are you kidding me? Mind your own family and your own business.

          • @CommunityMember
            Because you don’t shame people for having a Yetzer Hraha! You’re head-in-the-sand if thinking you or anyone around you doesn’t have one. You shame people who listen to the their yetzer horaha and do the wrong thing in public.
            FYI Tznius isn’t (just) about whats covered it includes provocative & casual dress that will encourage those with you to look at you in a certain way

          • of course men who cant control themselves should be ashamed.
            Thats not whats going on here, obviously he can control himself because nothing happened.

            This isnt an issue of someone not being able to control their urges. Its an issue of certain women feeling that that they have no responsibilty to dress in a respectful and unprovocative manner.
            would you tell a person passing a steakhouse not to salivate? Its not a matter of controlling urges, the guy isnt going to run in and steal stake.
            But there is a Torah Mandated level of Kedusha that is adversely affected when immodestly dressed.

            This is America and its a free country, these women may do as they please, but it sure is shameful to profess to be torah observant and then completely disregard the reality of this issue, and the torahs directive on it.
            So, in the spirit of “freedom of speech” i say, yes, “shame on you”.

        • Not being able to control your urges is a YOU problem. YOU work on YOU. You have no right to regulate others. The creator put us on this earth butt naked. Any form of human is beautiful and deserving of respect and kindness, not shame and shunning.

          • thats a pretty dumb comment seeing as the Creator of this world also put in his torah how women have to dress. Your not being shamed bc we don’t like it, you are being shamed for not following The Creator and causing others to sin as well.

          • With all due respect its a COMMUNIAL problem and YOU problem.
            You =A person must work on himself to the fullest extent.
            Communal = a person often can not win this terrible battle without the people around you remaining tznuis.
            Its the way this kind of nisyan and tetzer hara works. Its like candy near a child. Don’t dabble it in his face no matter how much self control you tach him. We are like little children in this.

            P.S. I don’t think grocery stores are the issue. But I am adressing the general tznuis outlook.

          • @moderator, how does this comment pass muster?

            The creator put us on this earth broke and destitute, why do you strive for sustenance?

            No, not every form of human is equal.
            I will treat with kindness every decent person.
            Show empathy for all who try.
            But for respect, it must be earned,
            And for a wretch, i havent an eye.

          • Since the chet of Eitz Hadaas, a different attitude is required.
            What is surprising is that the commentator ‘Chaya’ is not ashamed, or more accurately educated enough to write what she writes, unless she is an imposter – purposely trying to make trouble. You see that nowadays, people can go by a regular, Hebrew name, and make such comments without compunction.

        • No one has any right to shame anyone. If you ever seen someone who purposefully dresses indecent and I mean indecent in a very Jewish place it’s likely if you ask them they will say it’s because people have judged and shamed them. It just will make it worse and definitely won’t make things easier for the people that are having these issues.

      • I agree totally with you 100% well said!!!Stay out the store!!’Because you need help and if you get urges, you really do need a lot of help!’

          • I always find it weird when it is the same people (whether some of the comments here or in the world in general) who don’t seem to understand tznius, who are the first who will be suspicious and attack others for the most minor, possible infringement that they are concerned of. Standard procedure.

      • I think shaming is a wrong word and shouldn’t be done. There is a more gentler way than yelling. But to say that one should mind their own business and that its a yetzer hara like anything else which is a perosnal matter, is just wrong too. People have to realize that tznuis is a community and joint responsibility. We all know how many fences and walls are built around it. Its just something so alluring that most people even as chashuiv as yosef hatzadik can’t conquer without help. All the musar and slef work in the world can’t help if surroundings are not holy. Its just the way this nisyon works. I don’t think you’d dangle candy in font of your child and say well he needs to control himself and its not my business that my toddler is having a tantrum for that nosh. With this yetzer hara we are little children and thats why tznuis is so crucial. Its about the other guy.

          • except that there are crass terms used by a large portion of society that use the word you just mentioned as a descriptive noun in reference to women.
            So i would argue that his analogy is spot-on, and you simply have an issue with accountability.

          • And they aren’t little children who can’t control themselves. They are grown men who can avert their gaze. Close their eyes. Look the other way… but noooo that’s too much it’s gotta be the shameful woman’s fault….

      • Yaakov you comment shows either your a naivet or your deliberately displaying arrogance in a passive way.
        Without delving into the debate that you may want to engage into..
        There is a standard in Lakewood which has been overall adhered to for years, of course not without chalange, however, there is a prevelant standard set by the gedolei robonim and manhegai hai’ir – of this town. The recent erosion of that, is what the letter addresses. It is truly the hope of most, and I say most since I know it’s most, of the Lakewood population, to reverse the current pirtza amongst the few that seemingly don’t care or are not aware of the towns standard. Peeling back the pirtzas will effectively re-elevate the town in the direction of its former glory.

        • Thats tied to the extravagance and ostentatiousness of this town. If you want to peel back pritzas you need to peel that back to. There is a 1:1 correlation.

        • It’s not recent at all. You may not have noticed, but it’s been going on for decades already. In 2024, people don’t listen to Rabanim like they did in 1924. Today everyone knows how to open a sefer and decide for themselves what’s kosher and not kosher. That’s been the demise of many, many issues in Klal Yisroel.

    • Those men do have the ability to remove their eyeballs. They just don’t have the ability to restore them afterwards. And that las part is not our concern.

    • Now this is Trump talking to the point! That is why he won the first tine and why he’ll win the second!
      Trump said that Ukraine and Oct 7 would not have happened on his watch! Indeed, no major new wars began during his administration, so-much-so that the largest manufacturer of arms in the US had a massive slump on the stock market – which has a ‘slump snowball effect’, and they had to rebrand their century old name to get back on their feet!
      we all need chizuk (inspiration) yes, but everyone must put in their effort that things should be good. Tznius (modesty) means dressing and acting passive; not calling attention, and not straining anyone.

    • Honestly this man is 100% right…I don’t y think it’s coming from a bad place ..us women are constantly running in the grocery many times in a rush ..and not appropriate for the supermarket..and we should be more careful..

  2. Kudos to you! My husband has never gone to local grocery bc of this. I can’t believe what I (a woman) have to see in the local groceries!! It’s shreklach!

  3. Here we go again. Everyone has struggles. You have yours and the woman in the grocery store has hers. You’re right, don’t go to the grocery store. Stop the Lakewood bashing!

  4. Reb Blue Shirted Baal Habbuss,

    Many men want to know where in Lakewood you went shopping , so that they can go and enjoy the same sights that you saw.

    Cause right now, nobody knows what your talking about.

    Truth Agent

    • As a woman, I very noticed it in SEVERAL stores around town. Not sure where you shop!
      I have my own struggles with tznius. But I try.
      And when I go shopping in a few places around town, I can’t help but notice so many women dressed in ways that Lakewood never used to know of except for an occasional “special situation”. I don’t know what the men go through but I do know that I’ve seen lack of coverage while shopping the aisles.

      • here we go again with demands for machitza busses made by extremists. total troll.
        Perhaps you havent noticed but the problem hasnt just started now. By all means protest skirt lengths that are above the knee, or sleeve lengths that are above the elbow, but keep your chumras to yourself. not everyone is yeshivish/chassidish. get over it

        • Obviously written by a female who does not have a clue regarding male tendencies.

          Memo- No one is interested in your “Chumros” or lack thereof, JUST DO NOT BE A WALKING HAZARD !

          • What exactly would be the hazard. Are you implying that some harm would come to this woman because of how she dressed? Are you saying she’s responsible for your actions because of how she’s dressed? Feels like this argument wouldn’t hold up in court somehow..

        • Shemiras eynayim is not a ”chumrah”, it is a bona fide Issur Deoraysah, (Lo Sosuru acharei levavchem Veacharei Eineichem).
          Yes the main responsibilty lies on men to be careful, but Calling yourself ”not yeshivish” does not negate the responsibility that Jewish women have not to be stumbling blocks to men.

          • Fix your mind, not anyone else’s clothing. Heaven FORBID you leave the shtetl and have to travel to Argentina or Chile. You’re gonna need to put those “stumble-block” eyes out, kid.

            How absolutely shameful of you to expect the world to control itself so you don’t have to address your utter lack of self control. You expect a perfect world. That, in and of itself, is a sin. Tikkun Middot before Tikkun Olam.

    • Yes, what makes the difference between stores, I don’t know. Not saying anything about any particular store, but it’s food for thought. Maybe owners should weigh in a bit too, their attitude will make a difference.

    • Perhaps you should take a hard look at yourself and ask whether you have become so desensitized to inappropriate dress, that unless it is something really extreme you don’t think it even counts as pritzus.
      The sefer Vhaeir Eineinu is really beautiful and helpful in this regard.

  5. It’s about time this letter was written. Especially, from a “non frummy”! It’s a breath of fresh air to hear men like you who want keep the kedusha, and do the right thing! This should be a zechus for you and your family!
    I am a woman and I am see what your seeing in the grocery when I shop. I daven that, us Bas yisroel should have the respect and dignity to dress appropriate in every setting and not get desensitized and lower our standards. at the times its more convenient coming from the Gym etc… We are royalty!

    • Agree! Women and girls are required by halacha to dress tzniusdik. There are many English seforim with the halochos. The halochos should also be taught and emphasized in girls schools. Non-tznius dressing is a Michshol for others and machatee ess harabim. After 120 years, noone should want or have that kitrug.

  6. Your wife should appreciate your efforts and do all in her power to assist you in being מקדש עצמך במותר לך. Women who fail to appreciate that the גדרי צניעות is most helpful in their own שלום בית are to be pitied.

  7. you were busy checking hechsherim, expiration dates, quality and quantity, you were checking back with your wife on what is needed and what is wanted, you were extra careful with the wagon not to bump any produce off the shelves, and you were being mevater at the line for checkout,

    how did you have space in you brain for any more?

  8. As a woman who loves getting dressed up each day for work, I agree with you. Issue is, we aren’t getting dressed up for the supermarket, it’s how we dress during the day. And I’m not changing before I need to run into a supermarket. So what you are saying is that the real issue is how the women dress in general, not how they dress in the supermarket.

    FYI, my husband always says it’s better for Shmiras aynayim to go to the beach than to go to Lakewood kosher supermarkets.

      • In his defense, A man who goes to the beach knows very clearly that he is violating Halacha and that there is no valid excuse.
        The grocery store is a much more gray area and needs far more vigilance.

        • Dear struggling not to Look

          I am sorry to hear what you are going through in the grocery store..

          Hashem doesn’t give someone a Nisoyon they cant handle.

          There are also rabbanim and Therapists that can help you be more attracted to your wife.

          If you want your wife to look like that at home you can also communicate with her so she understands you.

          And in the meantime I also suggest shopping at NPJS at main Street I’ve heard that the women there tend to be less attractive.

          I hope you find more satisfaction in your life soon.

          Good luck for now!

    • So if you agree that how women dress in general is a problem, then why do you dress like that, even for work? Dress properly for work also.

    • one can be dressed stylishly and class-ily without being egregiously provocative.
      the Yetzer is there and must be dealt with even with someone who is “tznius”.
      The concept of this letter, as i understand it, has more to do with fashions that are designed not to beautify and refine, but to accentuate and define.
      So being dressed up and presentable is fine, and men have to deal with that.
      but dressing is a form of presentation, even communication, so one must be cognizant of what they are communicating.

  9. Kol hakavod! I don’t live in Lakewood but I am inspired by your vulnerability to share your struggles and speak form your heart. Also, thanks for offering women the opportunity to understand your angle. Ignore the naysayers that’ll say this was written by a women or why do you shop in apps etc…you are doing a big chesed to these women and to the other men shopping by raising awareness. Many people may not realize what they are doing and would never want to do it if they would be aware.
    Tizku lmitzvos!
    A woman from another town filled with chesed and also with the yetzer hara lurking in the supermarket aisles

    • i love these dumb comments.
      Maybe learn the passage of Rabbi Yehuda and why he was answered when he began to pray for rain.
      That should give you a reality check.

      Again friend, i have no qualms with you, you surely are a good soul, but i take Umbridge at your point.

      • Perhaps because no one here seems to be able to think about anyone but themselves. Can you even begin to imagine the inconvenience this would cause thousands of women in Lakewood, who are simply trying to get by, without having to worry exactly which hours of grocery time she can fit in her schedule. What happens if the kid has a Last minute show and tell and she needs to run to the grocery but she can’t cause it’s men’s hours. It is absolutely ridiculous.

  10. Thank you!!! was waiting for someone to bring up this issue. I am a regular guy like you describe, and I am appalled the way some women go dressed in these stores. anyone that tries to watch themselves but falls in a grocery store because of the immodesty of some women, is heartbreaking to say the least

  11. I actually stopped going to the city because of the way woman dress there. Very confused by your article, but gotta give it to you, very original and smooth way to get off the hook for doing the grocery shopping lol.

  12. I know exactly what you mean my only suggestion: Shop NPGS only; you won’t have these problems there. Their Clientele is much more “yeshivish” in the way they conduct themselves and in their dress.

  13. Get a shopping bag and wear it over your head so you don’t see anything.
    NPGS has bags.
    Seriously, if you struggle with your temptation while shopping you may need professional help. It’s uncommon and likely an indication of something deeper.

      • @moshe
        Because you don’t shame people for having a Yetzer Hraha! You’re head-in-the-sand if thinking you or anyone around you doesn’t have one. You shame people who listen to the their yetzer horaha and do the wrong thing in public.
        FYI Tznius isn’t (just) about whats covered it includes provocative & casual dress that will encourage those with you to look at you in a certain way

    • Yes exactly.
      What this guy is doing is called victim blaming. It happens all the time. Instead of looking at himself, at what he’s been struggling with which obviously (as seen from these comments) most men don’t struggle with, he’s been blaming the women.
      It’s a classic thing I hear all the time.

  14. I dunno, sir.

    I do the shopping in my home. I go to Seasons , Bingo , Gourmet Glatt and Evergreen and Breadberry.

    Besides for the half-a-handful of non-Jewish or non-religious people that will venture in there from time to time , I have never seen any of what your talking about.

    Maybe try looking where your supposed to look.

    Long Time Shadchan

  15. Very true! I personally know of a ‘frum’ married mother with kids that recently cheated on her husband, after enticing a lowlife man in a supermarket.
    Fellow women, PLEASE Stop dressing like (moderated)!
    Everyone eventually found out what she did. Husband dumped her, & besides for the disastrous outcome of this, she lives with tremendous amounts of regret and guilt for the terrible irreversible damage she caused on herself and families.

    Some women think “why is it my responsibility that other men look at me??”
    It is if you dress like that.
    Dress with TZNIUS and prevent tragedies!

    Thank you.
    -A Local Mother

    • “Everyone eventually found out” I never heard of such a thing. Am I a nobody? And if she did such a thing, she must have been quite a lowlife herself to entice a lowlife man.

      • Let’s face the facts 99 prevent of Lakewood covers their knees and elbows and we’re stockings, yes some dress provocative but that’s a very small percentage and that’s a man’s job not to look. (Yes they shouldn’t dress like that)

        It’s our chuiv to watch our eyes so just do that and be quiet.

        Take care of your family don’t worry about others.

        • Thank you! I think men sometimes (or usually) forget that THEY are also responsible. The same way they aren’t perfect, neither are women. Instead of blaming the other party, watch yourself before calling out faults in others!

    • A complete stranger whom she firsy meet in a grocery store? Or did she know him or cross paths with him elsewhere (maybe on line) and they also happen to meet in the grocery store ? In all likelihood the grocery wasn’t the initiator

    • She chose to cheat and he chose to participate in that. Her outfit did not force them to make that choice. It is incredibly easy to NOT have an affair; in fact, it takes significantly more effort to have one than to abstain, regardless of what someone is wearing. Blaming her outfit sounds like a form of denial.

  16. When my Ruv gave a shiur on Shidduchim he said if any men in the family wear blue shirts on the weekends it’s not necessarily a reason to decline but one is required to check the Yichus.
    There have been quite a few cases (one recently in Eretz Yisroel) where through some strange situation a Non-Jew entered into the family. My Ruv said in 95% of these cases he already knew it was a problem because the men wore blue shirts on the weekend.
    Does a Blue Shirt equal Goy?
    Not always but one must check very, very carefully.

  17. This is as old as the world exist. There are all kind of women around. Whenever I see non-tzniusdig ladies around they speak Hebrew. Also gentiles are shopping in our stores. By the way at almost every Chasene they are a few outsiders, maybe work colleagues or non frum relatives who don’t dress according to Jewish law, so men should not mingle on the ladies side. How about walking on the street ? Going to doctors appointments ? So men, just keep your eyes down.

  18. Supermarkets are not a place for men.
    Men belong in the beis medrash, not outside.
    Chalila to go to a public venue in which women are present. CHALILA!

  19. I’m really starting to think the scoop itself is composing these letters. It doesn’t sound real. Click bait. Non-issue.
    The fact you wear a blue shirt doesn’t make u more or less frum but you definitely don’t sound mainstream. I haven’t noticed any of this.

  20. It’s seems as though you may be watching something you shouldn’t. If seeing a women passing by in a store for a minute is this hard for you. I suggest you seek help ASAP
    You may need to move to a Lev Tohar community where women are fully covered.

    • There is no need to seek help for a normal man who does not want to see something he is not supposed to be seeing. Indeed, if such a person would go to a non Jewish therapist and will say that when he sees a woman in tight clothing, it arises thoughts in him, the therapist will say “it is normal”. According to halacha, he cannot think about a married woman this way. Understand halachic requirement for Jewish men and why shmiras einaim Is a challenge. It is hard, and these men try to follow halacha, not cope with OCD.

    • lol written by a girl, love it. Makes me wonder if the women who dress this way understood the nisayon it is for men maybe they would change their behavior.

  21. I highly recommend you come to seven mile marker in Baltimore. There girls are dressed very tzniusly. Partly because of the chinuch taught by our schools, but also because Reb Herchel stands outside the entrance with a ruler ensuring only Bnos Yisroel enter.

  22. I wholehardly agree with Mr. Weekend Blue Shirter, personally I only wear a blue shirt while working out at Planet Fitness. Its clear to me now why Corona happened.

  23. I wholehardly agree with Mr. Weekend Blue Shirter, personally I only wear a blue shirt while working out at Planet Fitness. Its clear to me now why Corona happened.

  24. I just love the comments where they try to twist it around and make the writer feel guilty…..(hey I don’t know I go shopping I don’t see anything wrong, just don’t look, you obviously have your own issues….) The people who write those comments – and there’s always those who say these exact statements – THEY are the ones who obviously have true issues. They are so deeply messed up with their shmiras einayim that they’ve become entirely desensitized to tznius. Of course they see “nothing”, nothing that DISTURBS them. There lies their issue. They should do teshuva and stop blaming the men, humans if flesh and blood, the giborim who stand strong and avoid looking at your pruste wife’s desperate attempts at luring other men to stare at her.

    The writer mentions only fashion show and gym. I don’t live in Lakewood anymore but I am floored when I walk thru stores in Lakewood. It’s not about fashion, it’s purely against halacha, no other way to put it. Skirts well above the knee are halachically okay or not? That’s all you need to ask yourself. Not that that’s the only breach of hilchos tznius but it’s that category. We’re not discussing is the sheitel a wig or a mop. No frumkeit here. It’s called being Orthodox, that’s it. Anyone who doesn’t see this is either desensitized, blind or just in the clouds.

    Oh – I’m also just another working guy who also wore colored shirts. Stay strong, we are the generation that will bring Mashiach. Precisely because of both the challenges we endure today and the special people like you who stand up and say NO to the strongest yetzer horah.

    • UncleMo, couldn’t agree more.

      The cynics are like your typical Liberal-minded pot-heads; they are afraid that their “way of life” will be taken from them so they always come out bashing.

    • 100% on Target.
      Could not have said it better.
      The cynics are either so desensitized and blinded to the essense of kedusha or simply not too bright to understand the concept altogether. Hopefully they aren’t evil gaslighthers who are intentionally trying to manipulate and blame the victim.

  25. I’m not understanding why TLS keeps posting all these opinion articles. Some of the resulting comments are horrible. I love lakewood, I’m living here for 30 yrs and saw the drastic change in town. People, focus on the good. Love your fellow jew, don’t be judgemental. You don’t know where others came from or where they are going. Hakadosh Baruch Hu loves all of us. Just remember that.

  26. Kudos to the OP for saying what every man is thinking. We keep missing the big picture and our wives keep throwing us in harms way by sending up into places that harm our neshamos. I for one have used this reasoning to stop shopping as well and I now have so much more time to hang with the chevra while my wife is the homemaker she was born to be.

    • Your wife isn’t and wasn’t throwing you in harms way. A quick question for all, why do99% of Jewish woman’s clothing stores sell clothing that is inappropriate for a bas Yisroel? The vast majority of clothing is too tight by design. Instead of complaining and saying men need to stay away, why not invest in a clothing manufacture that will produce clothing for bnos yisroel.

  27. I’m in Lakewood long enough to remember when NPGS was in the basement of the Alumni (is that called Bais Sholom now?) and they actually had separate hours for men

  28. Goose Gossage says KUDOS!

    Your cogent breakdown of the undeniable & unfortunate realities are commendable

    Goose says ALL women who engage in the activities that this esteemed author described are commiting לפני איבר.

    Gossage out!

  29. Being angry at women doesn’t help the problem. Every man needs to make his own wife feel good enough that she doesn’t feel the need for outside attention.
    As for girls, there is so much pressure on them to look good and not enough emphasis on inner beauty.
    Each individual needs to focus on themselves and how they are contributing to lower standards

  30. Fashion Clothes Designers Threaten to Boycott Grocery Stores That Do Not Conduct Fashion Shows On Their Premises
    Several renowned fashion clothes designers on Monday threatened to band together to institute a boycott on any, or all frum grocery stores that do not continue to conduct fashion clothing shows on their premises.
    “If the frum grocery stores discontinue the fashion shows, we will definitely retaliate!” said Pierre La’Fleur, the CEO of ‘La’Fleur’s Designer Clothing & Apparel’, in a statement issued on Monday. “We will never purchase another drop of chopped liver or herring salad from them again! The same goes for the cornbeef and the kishka, and all the other delicious heimeshe stuff they sell!”
    When reporters asked Mr. La’Fleur what his response would be if every frum grocery store on the planet, with no exception, particpates in a permanent fashion show ban, Mr. La’Fleur replied: “Then I’ll have no choice but to forgo all of my favorite heimeshe foods and delicacies. I mean, I’m absolutely crazy about kishka, and I can’t survive even one day without kosher chopped herring, but I’m willing to sacrifice all of my culinary needs for the greater cause, namely, fashion clothing!”

  31. Stop this now, kllal yisrael needs teffilos now..not squabbling with one another. It must be everything is normal. Chaval…….

  32. This article is absolutely correct and as I don’t like to demean anyone in klal Yisrael here are some tips I use for myself:
    1. Yes , the safest (term used lightly) supermarket to shop in is NPGS.

    2. The fancier the supermarket the more you will need to guard your eyes

    המבין יבין

  33. 1. The level of mockery on TLS is sad. It’s not a way to respond to any Jewish person, and all the clowns only prove we have much deeper problems in Lakewood. Stop mocking the author, if you do not know or understand halacha, you are not knowledgeable enough.

    2. Whoever says men who have urges are not normal and “have issues”- , I admire those healthy and self aware men who try to do the right thing!women who dress non tzniyus do not understand the value of shmiras einaim and that these halachos protect their families,too, because their husbands are also not immune from being exposed to other women dressed same improper way.

    • It’s not mockery. It’s that oddity of a man trying to tell women how to dress in a public place open to all because he can’t handle it.
      I live in a large Frum community with a major Yeshiva & no one is writing about this. The secret is to look at it from the bottom up & not top down.
      Where I’m from the attitude is a Jewish woman in pants came to the Kosher store because she cares about kosher? B”H & that the more Frum were welcoming & nonjudgmental enough that she feels comfortable shopping there, what a beautiful tolerant community.

        • So what’s your solution? Should the MO, barely Frum, Conservative, Reform be banned? Should there be a dress requirement that will turn people away? From Chushuv Rabbanim to Chushuv men involved in tsorchei tsibur to Kollel men they all manage to walk in to the supermarket &/or other places & survive (& don’t complain about it either).

          • Actually, many do complain, just not on a public forum. And there are others who would love to voice their complaint, but realize that it’s going to get a lot of backlash, and may do more harm than good, so they keep silent.

            This guy was a voice for the many who keep silent, knowing that the public immaturity and tantruming is something they wouldn’t be able to handle, even though they’re speaking the truth, which is exactly what we’re seeing with all the comments.

      • since when is it a jewish value to be “non-judgemental”?
        Thats only half of what it says about “b’tzedek tishpot es amisecha” theres another aspect to that halacha, as is clearly stated.
        Those who only quote the first part are actually adopting a teaching of the notzrim, not the Torah.

  34. Born and bred in an out of town community. Went to cheder with yeshivish,lubavitch, chasiddish, mizrachi,etc.
    bottom line….grow up….look inwards instead of outwards…..

  35. Where I live there are very few tznius issues in the stores…I live in a frum neighborhood in Yerushalayim. I used to live in the US. Nuff said. Now with the price of housing in Lakewood, you can get a apt in Yerushalayim for the price of a Lakewood house. As always, ask your Rav before moving

  36. Unfortunately, for some, this is part of the ‘shopping experience’ that was brought to town by certain stores. Shopping should be an experience just a practical point in life.

  37. (Sarcasm)
    I saw a similar speech given by Ali Khamenei, the Supreme leader of Iran.

    I think we should bring sharia law to lakewood. One person steps out of line, we will make a Karbon

    • or you could just go with contemporary society and have an average marriage length of 8.2 years, called the “7-yr itch”.
      seriously, google it.

      But the truth is the Torah provides “derech memutzah”.
      One can be dressed with class and elegance and not go over to provocation and accentuation. Thats the point here.

    • This article may be extreme but your response is just ill fated. No matter how much one is out of the gutter you aren’t shielded “ein eprtofis laryuis”. That’s just the way humans are created. Thats why its a community reposnbility. (That doesn’t mean that you can’t work on yourself so that you can grocery shopping but I am simply responding to the altitude of your comment. It isn’t torahdik)

  38. Look I have the same urges as you and the same problems. And there are many places that I avoid because of these issues. But, aside from a couple of one-off incidents I’ve never had this issue in Lakewood grocery stores. I do all the shopping for my family and I’m in the grocery store at least three times each week. Yes there have been incidents where I felt like someone wasn’t doing the right thing, but for the most part I don’t notice anything.
    I think that if you have a problem with the way the tznius nashim tzidkanios of Lakewood dress, you may have more of an issue than most of us guys who have problems with urges. It’s possible that you just have a harder life and you should avoid going out in public. Or perhaps you should speak to a therapist or maybe open a musser sefer.

    This is not to say that everyone is doing the utmost level of tznius and there is no room for improvement. I think there is room for improvement but I don’t think it’s as bad as you’re making it and I don’t think you have a right to complain about this.

  39. Modesty police are the solution. We’ve seen how it works in other countries where women don’t dress modestly, Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan come to mind. It’s much easier than controlling your own thoughts as a man.

  40. I am sure the bigger problem is the woman in the workplace not the grocery store. At work, you have more of a personal relationship with the woman. I am sure there are more horror stories from work related affairs than grocery store related affairs.
    I have not seen anything appalling in grocery stores. I am not sure what you are talking about. I have not see. People too revealing. Then again, I don’t really look at what people are wearing. What happens when you go to ShopRite or Walmart? Or anywhere else for the matter .

  41. The answer is simple, we have lowered our standards of tzinot, social media specifically IG has enabled us to feel more comfortable and accepted outside our fundamental comfort zones, todays “Orthodox,Frum” has changed and sadly isn’t coming back, its not only the way we wear our clothes its the clothes we buy, the vacations we take, the restaurants we dine in.. we are lost.

  42. I am a pintele goy who happened to read this article and wonder: Why doesn’t anyone here employ their yiddisher kop? Talk to the management of these stores and convince them to charge $3 to every man and woman whose clothing doesn’t respect Halachic norms. This way less customers will be tempted to dress without tznius and those who do will help poor and sick people. A win-win situation for all. “Chochmat haGoyim taamin!”

  43. I’m ashamed TLS would publish something by a blue shirt wearer who claims to be frum. If someone wears a blue shirt, you must check their yichus if they are really Jewish. My son’s yeshiva roommate wore blue shirts and the little tazddik asked to be moved to a new room.

  44. All sarcasm and jokes aside, you raised an important point and I’m glad I email my grocery orders and don’t send my husband to the grocery. Now if I can get some assistance paying my huge grocery bill, that would be great. Agree with those on NPGS and yes, I remember too when it was in basement of yeshiva apt and also sep men hours. Good old days. Thanks for raising this important awareness and all should take note and make improvement each on their own level.

  45. Excellent Letter, passionate and painful but so true!

    Not surprised that you have not received much sympathy online, TLS does not exactly cater to the NPGS crowd…

    I’ve take the liberty of explaining your critics and to translate what they really mean to say.

    1. Don’t Judge! are you perfect? (I can do whatever I want, and will accept criticism from no one, however well founded, because that person is not perfect)

    2. What are you doing on the internet, you hypocrite! (I forgot not to judge)

    3.You have problems, I feel bad for your wife! (clueless woman who does not understand why her husband loves going shopping at certain stores)

    4. If it bothers you, look away! (it doesn’t bother me that I don’t want to look away, please don’t take this away from me)

    5. I have never seen the supposed issues you are talking about! (I’m in denial. Really!)

  46. Two points: first off, Lakewood and its surrounding towns have become almost no different than the Flatbush community I grew up in. There are every types including vast amounts of people that are quite modern and have never had any connection to the yeshiva. They came here for other reasons (housing, nice aesthetics, great frum infrastructure, etc.). The Flatbush I grew up in 20 years ago also had many different types including lots of orthodox women who even wore pants and some that did not cover their hair either. So unless you are going to make an unenforceable litmus test of who can move into the Ocean/Monmouth county towns that now make up the greater Lakewood community, I think the ship has sailed. We dealt with it as kids, deal with it now. If you can’t, there’s always South Fallsburg or Kiryas Yoel or even Boro Park.

    Second and more importantly, I work in the City to. I have no idea where the original poster works but the offices I am in and the people I deal with, make every single frum lady no matter her dress look like a tzadeikis. No one in the grocery stores wear micro mini skirts. And for you to imply that our women who are raising frum families and daven every day (who have different standards of tznius than you do) dress like people in Manhattan do is just factually incorrect.

  47. Hey all,

    I’m usually silent when hearing such things discussed, however I feel compelled to share my thoughts on this as I am hoping that sharing my perspective could be helpful in encouraging kindness towards each other.

    I know that in Temple times there were things for which people were stoned / put in Chayrim for. But, does it say in the Torah that we are obligated to ‘police’ each other?

    We don’t always know what’s going on with someone (whether they are acting out or are in fact secular). Also, I just want to give us all a gentle reminder that Hashem doesn’t need our help to pass judgment on each other….

    To be honest, from what my Teachers have taught me over the years, Hashem wants us helping each other out when we struggle. I doubt kicking each other out of the ‘race to perfection’ was what He had in mind when He put us in this world…

    If Hashem is willing to rub His name out in order to save a marriage (Aisha Sota) then it’s pretty clear (to me at least) that He Primary wants us to concentrate on how we treat each other. After all, there is no Avodah if there is no Ahavas Yisroel and there is no Ahavas Yisroel without Middos.

    I understand the compelling need for the Frum community to ‘tick’ all the boxes that confirms if we are ‘Authentically Frum.’ But if we’re judging/slandering each other, isn’t that literally the opposite of being Frum?’

    Perhaps I am wrong, but things were simpler during Temple times. If someone was not being Tznius or Faithful etc. it was known to be a deliberate defiance of the Torah and worthy of extreme punishment.

    However, in modern times, the context has changed. And for many things, the reasoning behind the choices that we ‘all’ make are far more complicated today. As a result, is it not acceptable to handle such things with more Chesed and less Musser?

    • First of all, I believe your comment about Sota borders on “Megale panim B’torah shelo k’halacha”.
      And Second did you forget about Hocheiach tochiach?

      • Applies only if the person will listen. The vast majority don’t.
        I once heard a woman say about a shiur she attended about tznius. The young ladies that were profoundly tznius, looked to be more tzniusdik. The ones whose skirts were lacking, spent the shiur tugging their skirts over their knees. The scene repeated itself exactly the same way until the series completed.

  48. Let me share my own experience.
    I have suffered tremendously from similar thoughts not just in the supermarket, but everywhere, around every corner the yetzer hora was lurking, it was so bad that I was not able to walk the streets.
    So we went to this great sage that his name I shall not reveal, he thought for a moment and said the following wise word, I will quote them verbatim.
    דער הייליגער בעל שם טוב האט געזאגט, אלע פראבלעמען הייבן זיך אן און קענען געלייזט ווערן אין שטוב
    To paraphrase, the holy Baal Shem Tov said, all problems originate and can be cured at home.

    I wouldn’t go into details, because of tznious and this being a public forum and all. But since my wife started dressing up outside and dressing down inside וד”ל, all problems have disappeared, I roam the streets like a king with my beautiful wife at my side and the yetzer hora is as good as gone.

    • Seriously??? So a Non-jewish women that wants to get a few items on the way home from work will be turned away?
      A modern family who want to grab some food as they’re passing through Lakewood will be turned away?

      • It’s not that, but the more tznius we have, the more ‘they’ understand not to treat the lake, for example, as a beach. All people understand general sensitivities of a community.

  49. If a man walks down the street with his hat backwards nobody hesitates to point it out to him.
    If a woman walks into an establishment with her hair showing etc, her fellow females should point it out to her.

  50. tznius is not just about how we dress, its also how we should be living our lives. Do we really need all these mansions and extra large cars, $100 steaks, “high end” restaurants? maybe we should try to fix our non-tznius ways before pointing the finger at others.

    • Respectfully, remember 1 thing; while some do need/ want all those goodies in life, there are some that don’t need/ want those same things. The solution here is to be grateful to Bore’ Olam for what you have & to be happy for your fellow man, too.

  51. The Daled Amos that men are supposed to look at when they walk are the same Daled Amos they should look at when they are in a store. Looking at, shamomg others, judging others is worse than anything else that people are doing. Keep you eyes in your own head. Physician, heal thyself!! And stop preaching. People are who they are and just becuase one person has a problem, that person needs to blinder themselves. This is one of the stupidest coversations ever!!

  52. Sounds like you need blinders installed like they put on the carriage horses. You both have the same mentality of not being able to look straight, ignore distractions, and mind your own business.

  53. At WilliamsburgYungerman

    I am not getting into what the Bal Shem Tov said and what this Gadol told you.

    I will say that my father is from the biggest people around in today’s generation, and I am not saying it because it’s my father; this is what great people told me about him.

    He once told me that it’s a mixed-up world today. The ladies dress down inside the house and dress up outside the house; it’s supposed to be the total opposite; the ladies should dress up inside the house and dress down outside the house!!!

    But I am happy that you are doing great. Keep it up!!!

  54. The comment thread is top tier. I love everyone in this thread, especially the blue shirted sheigetz who wrote this fine piece. This is definitely the generation who will be zoche to bring moshiach!!!

    • just so you know
      the sefer chareidim writes
      one who chooses not to engage in dissent with those who are doing evil, will be judged as part of them.

      To be clear. Mashiach will not come because we tolerate abhorrence. That is not Shalom.
      He will come when the abhorrent make peace with the righteous.

    • Moderator: It is a mitzvah to love every Yid, but how to do so, is another question. I think it is a question if it is proper to express it publicly like this. (I’m not discussing the logic – or lack thereof – in the comment.)

  55. Hello,

    I want to add my 2 sense here.

    Please read the brief version of my story, and you can decide if this is really “other people’s problems” or if it’s an issue that is long overdue from being brought to the table.

    I was a “Regular Lakewood Ba’al Hamas” too (blue shirts and all) until about a year ago.
    Because of the topic that you brought to the table, I unfortunately found myself frequenting the local grocery stores to a bit “too often.” My wife (of 12 years, who, by the way, does not currently live with me) kept wondering why I suddenly kept offering to go grocery shopping. Without going into much detail, I now find myself deep into therapy, and separated from my family with a bonus restraining order from one of the “fashionable” women who thought that “presenting” herself to the whole supermarket would enhance her Shalom Bayis (I cannot imagine what else she was thinking). Hopefully, I can get back together with my family soon, as I have really worked on myself over the past several months.
    I in no way am placing the blame on these women, as I obviously was dealing with issues myself, but how can I forgive those husbands and women who knowingly drive men in the community to sin?
    I grew up in the tri-state area and went through the “regular” yeshivah system, where certain standards were always adhered to. Yes, there are other communities outside ours where the standards are different, but inside the community, by something as mundane as going grocery shopping, did we all completely lose our conscience?


    “A simple yid who is trying to recover”

    • This is obviously a bit of a sharp comment. But, if it’s being written, it is apparently a bit of any issue in other stores. I have noticed this too myself.
      As I said in another comment, the attitude of the owner of of the stores makes a difference.
      Maybe that is a point in itself: Is it generally known who they are? They’re run by multiple layers of owners/investors, managers, etc., and soetimes change hands…

  56. איו מחשבת עריות מתגברת אלא בלב פנוי מן החכמה

    Chazal tel us that Inproper thoughts only exists in the hearts that are devoid of Chochma.

    The reason Islam is dressing its woman with table cloths on their heads is because Arab men are sincerely trying in vain to rid themselves of inproper toughts and eye sights.

    Sadly no amount of clothing is enough to protect Islamic woman from crimes against woman which despite how their woman dress they are still being assaulted by men at rates much higher then in modern countries.

    Yidden have Chochmas hatorah which protects those who immerse themselves in its light, they don’t see the world in the same light as those devoid of Torah.

    Sometimes it’s not enough to learn Gemara, in addition to Gemara a man should also immerse himself into Chasidus and Pnimius hatorah and learn how to become one with Hashem and how to become a loving, kind and humble human being who only sees the good in everything he sees. He sees no evil.

    • Everything you are saying is good about men, but it doesn’t give ladies a right to dress flashy in any way – or the stores to ignore it.

  57. On the one hand, every community can set the standards they wish. On the other hand, living in the real world means you need to worry about yourself and do what you need to do without whining about it and trying to change people. The world at large is 1000 times worse, so maybe try to change that first.

  58. Articles the Lakewood scoop keep printing in different forms every year:
    1. How people dress in supermarkets
    2. Schools should stop giving off so much erev Yom Tov, legal holidays, midwinter etc
    3. Should schools decide where parents can take kids on midwinter
    Am I missing any?

  59. Different people have different level of biological hormones which will determine what someone’s baseline for attraction is.

    Some will struggle with this more then others, nothing to do with Yiras Shamayim just depends on your natural libido level.

    On a communal level men’s hours once a week is a great idea. On a individual level signing up for the Vayimaen videos can be helpful. Learning Positive Vision (Artscroll).

    Main thing to remember is that if you have this problem you are normal, and if you don’t have this problem you are also normal.

    There are extremes on both ends that are listed in the DSM and may benefit from professional treatment.


  60. You can’t control what others do, only what you do. To rely on an outside change to “fix” your own struggle is a foolish way to go. A wandering eye only goes as far as you let it.

    If my husband came home from the store and complained to me about the attractive women he saw, I would be highly concerned. I think it’s perfectly normal if he were to notice something – after that, it’s entirely up to him to quickly move on and not let his thoughts go wild. A man who chooses to linger his eyes – that’s on him, no matter the struggle.

  61. As a non-religious Jew who still tries to keep kosher, I’m sincerely interested in your perspective on what my wife should do. She typically visits Lakewood a couple of times a month to purchase kosher meat, but she doesn’t dress modestly during those visits and that’s not something she’s willing to change. Would you prefer that we stop getting kosher meat to avoid any discomfort or exposure to someone like my wife?

    • My recommendation is that your wife should go buy kosher meat in any Lakewood supermarket. Everyone trying to be the better version of themself. For you, it’s trying to eat kosher.

    • Nothing personal, but just a point I wanted to make anyways here in this forum. If she was going to a store in an Arab neighborhood – where they go dressed as mummies, would she also go the way she goes now? Maybe it is a good idea to develop a relationship with someone in town, so she can understand their perspective and appreciate the general life, and see that it is one of kindness and happiness.

  62. I was actually at a grocery store during morning hours when all kids are in school (I’m never there during those hours but this particular day I was). I was extremely disturbed to see the amount of ladies coming straight from the gym to the grocery store and couldn’t believe how many ladies were not wearing sock and were wearing leggings with extremely short skirts over it. I was disgusted to say the least. Is this what the grocery stores look like every day at 11 AM?

  63. This is so deranged and insane I genuinely can’t thank G-d enough I don’t live in this community. Can I suggest gluing your eyes permanently shut? 🙂

    • Before WWI, the US sent out draft notices. Now, there was politics about whether or not they should enter the war, and those who were opposed to it said that those who had received the notices should simply discard them, and not even respond with their info, as was required by law.
      They were arrested.
      In court, they argued ‘freedom of speech’. The answer came that the freedom is only to express one’s political opinion, but once something is law, one cannot encourage others to break it.
      So too, no one would suggest that a victim of theft, for example, should simply glue his eyes shut, as as solution, as if it did not happen.
      There are halachos and community standards (hanhagos), and they are important.

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