Two people have been stabbed in Lakewood moments ago.
The incident happened in West Gate shortly before 10:00 PM.
One victim was stabbed in the leg, and one in the shoulder, officials confirmed to TLS.
At least one other victim was pepper-sprayed.
According to preliminary information, it appears the stabbing was a result of an ongoing dispute between a teen and another neighbor. The stabbing victims are reportedly in their twenties.
The stab victims were transported to Jersey Shore University Medical Center. Injuries are not life-threatening.
Lakewood’s Detective Bureau and CSI are responding to the scene. A crime scene has been established.
Police are looking for the suspect.
BREAKING UPDATE: The suspect has been located.
UPDATE – Sunday 9:35 AM: Police tell TLS the teen suspect was brought to police headquarters and has since been released to his parents, as it appears he may have acted in self defense. The investigation is ongoing.
Developing.
BREAKING VIDEO: At the stabbing scene in Lakewood. https://t.co/qaiLOCmIIo pic.twitter.com/5xlo0eFnVk
— The Lakewood Scoop (@LakewoodScoop) September 18, 2022
this may have been in self defense of a perceived threat either way we need an educational or vocational solution to channel these energies in a positive way which can lead to wonderful results and until then we probably need a permanent police presence or a privately hired security patrol
Names for tehillim?
As someone who works in the Westgate Plaza at night & has a lot of experience dealing with these people, no, it was probably not in self defense. We are all so brainwashed from years of hearing about poor misunderstood children. Not all, but many of these bums are just sick, perverted, and violent people. I’m just surprised this doesn’t happen more often. It’s about time that we stopped tolerating & rewarding this kind of behavior.
dont call Hashems children a bum what is wrong with you . your the sick one not them how cold you. did you go through what they went through .
how cold you say such things !!!!!!!
what would you say if it was a boy you knew.
how cold yo even think such things. wen i first saw the post i started saying tehilim for the victims and the suspect cues i know so many “BUMS” who once wear regular boys whos parents wear proud of and now those parents pray and plead to Hashem asking him to BRING OUR BOYS BACK . think for a second they are not “BUMS’ they are TZADIKIM who were lost by the system . THINK BEFORE YOU WRIGHT cues every yid has a story.
You’re absolutely right! That’s why I never criticize Stalin or Bin Laden or Yeravam ben Nevat or any other reshaim. They were all created betzelem elokim. Do we know we would have done anything different if we had been in their place? Can we say that we are perfect? Keshot atzmecha veachar kach keshot acheirim! I once heard someone call Stalin “sick”. Immediately I responded, “No, you’re the sick one! If the system had failed you like it failed him, you would have been even worse!” Obviously, the only people who should ever be criticized are those who are sick of being victimized, harassed, & robbed by lowlife creeps. If a bum acts like a psychopath, that just shows what a tzadik he is. Anyone who has the chutzpah to point out that this paragon of righteousness who spends his days stealing, doing drugs, & fighting with random people, belongs in jail is obviously a rasha merusha. Everyone knows that this is why people move to Lakewood – to bask in the uplifting presence of these spiritual giants, & just as important, to get away from self righteous hypocrites who try to be decent people.
#Triggered
Love it
I don’t know what the story is here, but it important to read more seforim on middos/chinuch etc, and to have more programs. Hangouts are not good at all for anyone!
How sad to see the Goyishe world creeping in.
Yidden know that chinuch is everything, and if it is failing, we find a solution. Blaming the person who fell out of the system is a shirking of responsibility.
But we have allowed the right wing shmutz into our homes, through newspapers and internet, and then into our hearts. Then we start labeling people and considering them sub-human.
Mr. Tired – if you are tired, go to sleep. Don’t make others fix your middos issues
I agree. That’s why in my new religion, no one has any responsibility for their actions, & no one is mentally ill. This includes people who exhibit sadistic, violent, & criminal tendencies. The one & only exception is the victims of of such people who dare notice what is happening. We know that they are really the evil ones!
People scared to walk in the street? People being harassed as they try to shop? Stores being stolen from? Who cares about them, when we can care about the people doing those things?
Mr. Peaked Cap, may I recommend that you seek out greener pastures? I hear there are many lucrative DA positions available for people with exactly your line of thought. Why be stuck here with hateful people when you could be making a difference in cities like Chicago, San Francisco, NY, etc? Join the ranks of Chesa Boudin, Alvin Bragg, & all the other DA’s who punish the law abiding & protect criminals.
Of course their Bums, Are you more righteous than ravina and rav ashi who describe some of “hashems children” as “listim” and “sikrikin”?
No, you are just affected by liberal attitudes and are defending the indefensible.
Oh, and yea, I probably did “go through” what they went through.
Turns out that struggles, broken homes, and molestation, as terrible as that is, is no excuse for vandalism and violence. Just ask all of us who went through it and aren’t vandals!
Now, this that it may have been in self defense is a different conversation, its a matter of who the bums were, not a matter of there not being bums.
every yid has a story yes, does that mean stabbing an innocent person is justifiable?? and for everyone who is feeling bad and being compassionate to these crazy boys, remember there are also families whos son, brother, husband, father was stabbed for no reason.
Free the homies they ain’t do nun against yall community💰🦍
Other than ruin it
You have to take an account and over the last 20 years or so we’ve taken a totally new and modern approach to child rearing. The excuse was that times are different ,all good and well. however there is one point I think which got completely passed over , every other field from medicine to finance there is some sort of accountability, when your financial advisor or a doctor gives you bad advice it comes back to haunt them. Therapist educators on the other hand never have to give any accountability to all the new ideas they propose, especially since the results are only seen many years down the line.. and they can always respond that without them would have been even worse… Maybe the time has come to give a bit more respect to the way our parents brought us up and be a bit more skeptical of all these new fangled ideas.
There is NO legal liability for any vaccine injuries or death! And even when Pfizer KNEW a certain med. would cause much death, they paid a fine which was just two months of their total profit – no jail time, no arrests!!
About chinuch ideas, they must be run past the gedolim. Shouldn’t all people be reading such seforim as Zria Ubnian Bechinuch and With Hearts Full of Love?!
There is no accountability for vaccines!! No legal liability to drs. or manufacturers!
But you may have a point about the advice of therapists. I don’t know who is behind all advice. I’m not saying anything, but one should consult Daas Torah.
Also, it’s important, like I mentioned, to read seforim and hear shmuzen on middos and chinuch. The seforim written by contemporary gedolim and mechanchim — people who are involved, are important. They go through the various ideas that have come up, and discuss what is good, and how to deal with things. Behatzlacha!
For all the ones that are not even educated in this sugya of “Bums” or whatever you wanna call them , as an experienced and close to all of this souls in pain. This kids were sx abused, hurt or bullied by “very frum” and “Religious” figures when this kids were little and innocent, ether by their own Rebbes, or close relatives. And their trauma comes out at the teenage years . They act like this as result of their pain against the religion that onces betrayed them. Anyway I heard that all this was self defense and 4 huge older guys went to the kid’s house to threaten him and where on top of him beating up the 15 year old on the floor, really hurting badly a single 15 year old kid with a knife and other kind of weapons, and the older guys hurt themselves, and they’re back home so it wasn’t a real stabbing. I don’t get why the Lakewood scoop doesn’t report the real thing and makes it sound like a stabbing. Since 4 older grown up guys were bitting him up and they had other weapons I also heard that a few nights before they went to treat him of death if he doesn’t give them information about something that this grownups ups want to know. At the scene there were plenty of witnesses saying the same thing.
Please get the facts straight!! Stop the fake news
I am interested in hearing your side of the story, about how it may have been in self defense (even though we may not know the story before the story, or the stories before that), however your lack of understanding of spelling and grammar make your post extremely hard to understand.
TO THE EMES: ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY OUT OF YOUR MIND?? IT WASNT A REAL STABBING??? 2 innocent young men were rushed to the trauma center in the hospital!! the young man was lucky the boys didnt hit any major arteries or this could have been deadly!!
YES, being sx abused is something hard and traumatic to go through but it is no excuse or explanation to the terror they have been causing for months on end or stabbing and innocent person!! you really sound like a crazy person for justifying a kid stabbing someone innocent. And no the 10 other boys who were there punching and beating these 2 men are no witnesses, they are criminals as well!! there are actual witnesses who can prove that this was completely unwarranted and no self defense!!!
Lets be realistic
As LKWD grew this was bound to happen.
In Yerushalayom (where I ex LKWDER know live) after a too many of these incidents in the OTD community, the local government started real investment in crime prevention in this community and we have seen real improvements.
Some of the things that have been successful:
– Increased police presence, especially in crime hotspots
– Crack down on drug dealers
– Police and Social Workers who invest in relationships with the community to build trust and prevent crime
– centers to complete education
– early intervention – social workers and trained counselors who are paid to identify the younger teens who are out of school and hanging out, and to help with school placement.
–
are you chalilah assuming the stabber was a yid?
Stop sticking up for a bunch of criminals they just stabbed people you really think that’s normal they are animals and should all be locked up this is what happens when the police refuse to do their job
How dare you call our brothers animals? Even if they did something wrong, the Torah still calls them our brothers.
animals they are. it’s a term we use in the English language to characterize those individuals who stab others.
It doesn’t actually call them brothers, though. That’s only for those who keep the Torah.
That should apply to every human being but it’s really sad when things like this happens in others parts of town and the comments are so inhumane. If the stabbing was at Woodlake, High Point, Pine Acres Or Martin L King the comments were going to be 99% different than what we’re reading here now.
@berel, you have good intentions, but basing on your comment, you have no clue as to the investments of time, effort, and dedication, the professionals, mechanchim, and rabbonim who are working in tandem with parents, have done for our youth in pain.
No one is exempt from the challenges of raising this generation. Yet, just maybe, these children in pain, are going to be the ones who are will be on the frontlines when moshiach comes. It might just be in the zchus of their suffering, that this golus ends.
There are no easy answers. The problem is that we basically have one system for being mechanech children and it works really well for some (we have בחורים learning today on the level never heard of years ago), works ok for others and backfires for others. We need other options and parents need to be open to other options if their kids don’t fit the system. One small example I would give is that the Lakewood schools go 11 months a year with almost no mid-winter vacation. Parents who have a child that hates school need to use their שכל and take the child on vacations as needed (like is done by heimishe families out of town, where there is such a thing) and the school must understand and not worry about what others will say. This is only meant as a small example. Obviously where there is a mental health issue and there is more to it than the system being tough and not the right fit, the issue must be addressed like any physical ailment would be. Above all we need to plead with the כל יכול to stop this צרה together with all of the other צרות we have in גלות.
THIS WAS NOT SELF DEFENSE
this is what these hooligans allege.
these kids do NOT belong roaming the streets and terrifying the population of Westgate on a daily basis.
What are we waiting for? When someone actually gets killed then we will pat the heads of these kids and feel sorry for them???? Upside down world some of you are defending????
Well 4 older guys went 3 times to encounter the teen a single teen I think he’s 15 and the guys that went to the teen house where adults. They went to bit up the teen since the teen didn’t give them information about another friend, basically since the 15 year old didn’t want to snitch on his friend They threatened him since two nights ago that they will come to hurt them and that they actually own a gun. 6 guys and a older man on his 40’s went over Shabbos to the teen’s house to try to get information from the teen in an aggressive way, 6 older guys against one fiveteen year old??? Does that sound normal?? Then they went back again to his house but this time they brought a very muscular and big guy and in front of his house and in front of neighbors they bit up a single 15 year old ?? The teen said he heard they broke a gun. Ans the news say that teens stabbed someone?? That’s insane miscommunication and fake news. Bh The mother took videos and pictures and the mothers called the police on the old guys, as she yelled at them that police was being called they flew away. The teen is totally innocent and wasn’t taken to custody. But now the family is being targeted from all different kinds of people that got the fake news and the family is being threatened ,I feel bad for the teen’s family that now has to go through all neighborhood talking on their back . Horrible slander situation.
A witness
Really? This is fake news that he steals cars and breaks into homes and shuls? That he carries weapons? That he’s a danger to the neighborhood? We all know the truth, we witness it every day.
He doesn’t steal cars and doesn’t break into houses or shulls and he doesn’t usually carry a weapon and he is not a dangerous person. It’s not him that did anything of which I mentioned above it’s somebody else so stop blaming people if you don’t know what you’re talking about.
The victim was away for shabbos. His apartment was vandalized by this kid while he was away. Yes its on the video camera. You can’t possibly be a witness since your details are completely incorrect. One victim ran to get a tourniquet BH while the other victim hid from the gang and called police and EMS for his injuries. There wasnt a 15 year old beaten up by anybody. You can’t be a witness. You may be a kid
Learn to write before you post something in English.
You make zero sense, “I’m a witness” person.
Plus, you seem to be protecting criminals. Maybe you’re the mommy of one of them
Food for Thought:
Maybe it is a good idea when you pass someone on Shabbos to wish that Yid a Good Shabbos with a smile.
Maybe this can help the teenagers-a few friendly words-a smile.
It’s ironic because I actually did wish the stabber a Good Shabbos this week, only a few hours before he stabbed the victim! You have to be warm and friendly but also enforce the law and punish them for their crimes. Talk softly but carry a big stick…
What I meant was that maybe we should have said Good Shabbos (with a smile) to him five years ago and every single Shabbos since then.
This past Shabbos, saying a nice word is a good thing, but maybe it is a little too late.
(putting a bandaid on an open wound, when you need to stop the bleeding)
Yes, we all go out of our way to be nice to these guys (including myself), & generally just get taken advantage of.
Human nature is that we like to feel like we know everything. Everyone has an opinion. Whether or not we have experience or expertise, we like to have what to say. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s how we are created. There IS something wrong, though, when we run our mouths in incredibly insensitive and even cruel ways, because we think we know everything, on a topic we are in fact CLUELESS about.
How many children at risk do the commenters above really know? Even if you think you know them, what do you really know? Did any of them open up to you? Explain to you the pain in their hearts?
Unfortunately, though as a community, this topic of struggling “children” has been brought to our attention for about 25 years or more by now, the widespread lack of knowledge on it is unbelievable, and even dangerous.
So called “experts” who callously shake sage advice out of their sleeves, without spending a day of their lives trying to understand these children, are not part of the solution. They are part of the problem. Who knows how much damage was caused by this cruelty and insensitivity?
At the very least, before offering your opinion, do some research. At least give Jewish children that respect, not to pass judgement on them before reading up on the topic, from people who did take the time to deal with them, in an unprejudiced, honest, and non-judgmental way.
And to those who find themselves in this painful situation, especially parents: please don’t listen to the brilliant advice of these homemade experts, no matter how confidently they spout their wisdom.
There are people and organizations who do care, and do put in blood sweat and tears to help these children and their parents, not just to show off how smart they are.
(Kesher Nafshi, Shimon Russel, and Shais Taub, are good places to start)
Its almost Rosh Hashana. Let’s all have a little humility.
A little respect for our precious Jewish neshamos.
Why do you think a child who was raised in a frum home and went to frum schools would act the way these children act? Do you think they enjoy their lifestyles? Do you really think they chose to end up where they did? These children want to be ehrich, often more that we do.
If you don’t understand, please have the strength to keep you mouth shut. Don’t say anything. Don’t say “I’m not an expert, but…” Say absolutely nothing.
If it’s hard not to have an opinion when everyone else does, maybe that will be your zchus on the Yom Hadin.
Thank you for your insightful words. Obviously, you do have a lot of experience dealing with these people. Please post your number for Westgate businesses so we can call you when crowds of juvenile delinquents gather pn Thursday nights in the plaza to harass people trying to go shopping, blast offensive rap music at 12am, steal from our stores, steal people’s credit cards, etc etc.
Enstead of that how about lets have a meeting to stop the people that hurt them for being different and for having learning difficulties and for not being able to be in a regular school/yeshiva system and for not complaining with the cookie cutter system, for being out of the box since Hashem created us different, and for not having such yeshivos/ schools. And worst of all let’s plan have a meeting with all the business people about how to stop the sexual abuse in our very own Yeshivos . The frum statistics are that the 98% of the kids of the derech out there were molested or sexually abused in yeshivos / schools or frum family members.
When you have a good plan how to stop all that from happening call me to the meeting and you won’t see angry and cholei nefesh kids out there.
It’s just not fair that no body cares and no body does in off to help and stop hurting this neshamos. And don’t forget that a teenager’s brain isn’t fully developed yet. But adults brain is.
I like how you casually spew lies & hate about an entire community. Do you know how many people pour their hearts and souls into helping these losers? How much money our community spends trying to help them? Programs, special yeshivos, events etc. Then you claim that 98% have been molested. An astounding claim, that, if true, would be a very grave charge against the entire town. Where on earth are you getting those “statistics” from? There have been actual studies carried out by professionals where OTD adults were polled for why they went off. The number of those who claimed to have been victims of arayos abuse are nowhere near 98%. Not even close. For someone who calls themselves “Emes”, you certainly don’t seem to be very committed to the truth. The only one here rushing to toss out wild & unfounded smears against an entire kehila is you, yet you simultaneously complain about lack of ahavas yisroel.
Do you know how many people pour their hearts and souls into helping these wonderful children of the Almighty whom were not successful in the regular Yeshiva.
98% CLAIM that they were molested, and in general that they take no blame at all for their actions it’s all the SYSTEM whoever that is which failed them and it is the SYSTEM which is at fault. Now that is very telling.
Why don’t we have a statistic that 98% blame it on themselves and are specifically looking for help for their issues? How dare you blame all of klal yisroel and the besmirch then with the very worst of sins based on a claim of a “problematic” teen who obviously has no compunction to lie steal or cheat?
No body is blaming all klal yosroel chas v’sholoim!! There’s is many great people that try to help this kids. Yet we as comunity don’t like them.
And yes the 98% of children off the derech have been sexually abused.
Is a fact.
I know this might come across somewhat toughly, but everyone has food for thought when matters happen.
Nothing personal is meant on anyone, and all this is being written from the heart, simply to help out.
First, let us be very happy about all the good that exists, all the great things that are being accomplished – at every age and stage. It’s very special, and incidents such as this (whatever happened exactly — it’s very hard to make it out from the comments!) are extremely uncommon, if virtually unheard of here.
But we must take into account – and like some commentator is saying – about outside influences creeping in:
– Have the rabbanim been consulted about the wild stampede of proven-cancer-causing junk food available in most “food” stores?! If they would be consulted – with this wording, would they agree it’s fine, or would say to – at the very least – drastically cut down?!?! B”H there is much healthy food, but here needs to be an increase. And it should be tasty healthy foods. There are many ways to make things healthy – not with sugar, and artificial chemicals, and deep fried, all of that is essentially poison.
– If rabbanim would be asked about that antibiotics and all medications have side effects, and that 99.999% of them would be unnecessary if people ate healthfully, slept well, relieved themselves daily, got some exercise and sunshine, were happy and laughed – instead of being uptight and depressed, would they agree that so many people take all types of meds on a regular basis – both over-the-counter and prescribed?!?! I understand years ago people hardly knew of the fraud of Big Pharma, but now, much more people do, are shailos being asked?!
B”H many are getting these messages, and we see much improvement, over the years. But there are always new junk foods and new meds, and heavy advertising for them, so we need to work on it.
-In the seforim stores, are seforim on chinuch etc. piled high at the entrance, or books of novels – which may be better than Aino Yehudi books, but we need books that teach middos, avahas chesed, bitachon, simchas hachayim and mesiras nefesh for mitzvos, not wasted time. These books and seforim do exist and are in the stores, but you must look for them. Maybe they’re afraid that children will see them and they’re afraid it may look funny for the parents, I don’t know, but I think if they were selling more, there would be piles.
-Rap music – Not good. But what about recordings of concerts which the gedolim have signed are ossur gamur? Not just a chumra. They all have lack of ztnius, and thus the singers are chotei umachti es harabim. (I don’t know exactly who these singers are or are not. There exist lists from vaadim on the matter. The gedolim have signed it’s even ossur to sing their songs at a simcha, Shailos must be asked.) And please don’t start ranting about internet, they said that at the minimum, it should have a filter. But concerts are totally out, because they’re never done properly – in some 40 years. So how do these recordings continue to be sold? (See further about what to do.)
-Late at night? What about good sleep, as we spoke. This needs to be taught, and people need to be helped out to be calm, look over their day, and feel happy to get a good night of sleep. Not to always be woken up, and never getting a normal night of sleep. Being woken up means one is not getting good sleep. Maybe many didn’t know this, in the past, thanks to Big Pharma – that industry that purposely wants people to be able to work just enough to make money for THEIR profits, but to be sick enough so that they earn heavy profits. (Big Pharma = biggest business in US @$3.8 TRILLION per year, and is 20% of GDP.)
What about “frum” publications that are half murder stories is, as a certain publication is?! But just because it’s available and in print form, is that a reason for it to be sold in stores that also sell “seforim”. What’s going on?!
But we can’t blame the owners of any store/service, they’ll answer that ‘why are people paying their hard-earned money on these things?!’.
Once, at a shiur on shatnez, a question was posed about whose responsibility it is. A rav stood up and said that he feels it is the consumer’s. Certainly, there is the idea of a factory getting a hashgacha, (which would have to mean a certifying label in the garment – not just a verbal claim), and this has been done. It would make it cheaper and easier for everyone. But until then, it is really up to the customer. And as it goes with everything, you vote with your dollars. If only people would realize that for every item or service bought or hired, they are causing more of that to be available and common, they would think twice. It’s not just for oneself, it’s for others as well!
So, when there are problems, we must all take into account, what can I do better, and try to make some concrete kabbalos – even small ones.
Who is shouting from the rooftops ‘eat healthfully etc, wear reflectors at night (it’s only 5 seconds on, and 5 seconds off – and yes, they’re necessary in the developments as well. Maybe not as much, it depends on the lighting. But the fact is that streets are streets and night is nigh – even in a city – where there is typicality much lighting.).
Some other points of safety: To never put things on steps – even for a moment. Have steps always lit up. Have lights on bikes etc. – front and back – as required by law (and ideally even by day, as it helps a lot).
We shouldn’t just roll into shul to ‘chap a minyan’. It’s an opportunity to smile to others, to develop a relationship. B”H we do see this much. Also, when a younger person sees that older people are trying to be nice to him, he should allow it, and embrace it. Sadly, because of an amount of lashon hara, some people may be afraid to do chesed, to a degree. It’s a catch-22, because then people don’t feel so welcome, and then there are problems. Insanity. A young person should realize there are many people who would like to be nice to him, but he must allow it. If he does not allow it to warm his heart, is that because there is an issue, or because is he concerned about one, or is it perhaps simply gaava, or perhaps he just doesn’t realize that people really like to be nice. Young people must understand: Junk food is not the only sweet thing in life! People really like to have nice conversations, but one must allow it and appreciate it. And one must take the time to think about this. And this should be given over – especially to young adults. They need learn about thee things. They start coming to shul, and may feel that they are not getting enough recognition, so this starts a gang mentality. Perhaps by some, their shemiras Halashon may not be so well polished (which may not be their own fault, this is something that one can always grow in – by all ages), and so one of them makes some comment about someone, and then, sadly, a lot of goodness is very hard to do. It’s important that people should be there for them, but at the same time, they need some coaching from their parents and mechanchim on this. The discussion should be about how to come to shul, how to understand people who are older than them. What a shame that sometimes people only take notice that others exist when there is some issue – or a perceived issue. This is normal human nature, and part of the challenges of this world. But if one is wise, he’ll think about these points.
Again, as we mentioned, shailos must be asked about all these different points. There are many variables, nothing here is a psak, just to be meorer as food for thought. People are wonderful, and mountains upon mountains of goodness and greatness are being accomplished. These are some things to think about.
Thank you for taking the time to read.
Much hatzlacha!
I would just like to add – especially for younger chevra who might be reading this, I didn’t mean that chinuch isn’t being done good enough – it’s great. I just meant there are always hints, tips and tricks that you can learn – just as with every profession. But for younger people, they have to focus more on being happy, appreciating what one has, and looking to take the strengths one has and go further. There is a big Yetzer Hara to look at everything that could have and should have been, and get all upset about it. Certainly, there is always room for improvement in life, but one must see all the establishment that is already, and then see what he can contribute to this world. Then, when one is privileged to do something, he will be humbled and happy.
Let’s see how you feel when you get your arm slashed with a machete. Let’s see when you’re the victim of aggravated assault/attempted murder…i doubt you’ll sing the same tune.
Another big fact of what brings the struggle kids down is that everyone looks at them like if they are garbage, and they stare at them in a judgamental way. Just as we cannot judge the holocaust survivors that stopped being frum after their pain and trauma, the same think we can’t judge this struggling kids, they are carrying a huge pain and trauma. Some like you said, can’t seat and learn and the system of our schools make them feel stupid in front of the other kids in class, and this is for years until they can’t anymore. Others have bad traumatic experiences like abuse from their very orthodox figures so they don’t wanna be like those orthodox that hurt them.
If all the people in Lakewood instead of judging them and stare at them like that will say “hi” to them “smile” at them and have rachmanus at them since we don’t have ven know what they went through.
All the gedoilim of our dor including Rov Chaim Kanievsky ztzl said: “Whoever helps return Hashem’s children to him, will be saved from Tzaar giddul banim” Also we never know what this kids will become when they get older , most of them go back on the derech and become thalmidei chocomim, I know many of them. So how can you treat them like garbage if they have a piece of Hashem inside too. And by the way , inside them they all love Hashem, it’s just that this kids don’t like themselves for whatever trauma happened and they are in deep depression , they’re all are cholei nefesh and they’re actually in life threatening danger. They aren’t happy with their life. Please people stop making it worse for them and have Rachmanus.
What you’re saying is all true. But they terrorize Westgate every week. They steal cars, harass people, burglarize vehicles, homes, and shuls, and commit acts of violence. There’s a time and place for kiruv, but they must be stopped. I smile at them and shmuez with them all the time, but they can’t be allowed to turn Westgate into Harlem.
While you point out some true points, that of course we should try to help, theres a caveat to that “where we can”.
helping doesnt mean turning a blind eye, or a cheek, and allowing the nuttiness to reign free. There are consequences in life for the actions we take, and NO ONE should be given free reign from those.
That isnt compation, THAT IS ENABLING.
Lets be clear. There are many children, or adults who were children, who have gone through these same horrors r”l, of broken homes, abuse, and neglect. And many of “us” didnt go on to do these types of things, and theres no reason “we”, or really anyone for that matter, has to accept it from someone who decides to share their grievences with the world at large, by perpetrating similar grievance.
To “The Emes”. Being molested, having learning disabilities and not being treated properly in schools is horrible but not an excuse to stab to people. It really doesn’t give the child the right either to steal cars nightly and rob people with a BB gun.
By not having consequences for his first actions he is now carrying a large knife and using it. There were not 4 huge guys. There weren’t even 4 guys. No youth was being beaten. And yes, one of the men was pepper sprayed and cut very badly. The other one was cut in 2 places. Your friend/child was wronged by the system. It doesn’t give him free reign to steal, destroy property, and stab people.
Well bh the family of the teen has videos and pictures to prove the truth, and yes there’s 4 tugs beating up a 15 year old and he did not stabb them. The teen was actually cut and injured and pepper sprayed and the mom was the one calling police. Bh they have proof , the ring camera plus pictures , videos and neighbors that witnessed it all . So please get the facts straight. And they came to the teen’s home to beat him up for something that he didn’t even do. Just for not snitching on a friend.
As a local, I know exactly who these kids are, and I recognize them in the pictures above.
If you want to live like they do in the hood, please move your royal highness to the bronx or harlem.
Hate to break it to you, but all of humanity are Hashem’s children. The struggling ones often turn off the road. Doesn’t mean we should abolish prisons and turn them into kiruv centers. There are a time and place for both.
I believe a lack of real life consequence for their actions are key here.
SO I agree with your sentiment.
But you have to review the mishna, where it says chaviv adam shenivra b’tzelem, and then chavivin yisroel shenikru banim lamakom.
I stand corrected.
See the Chazon Ish in Hilchos Shabbos where he explains how to deal with marauding Arabs, how we should treat masses of thugs with compassion.
Stop learning Hashkafa from Ben Shapiro.
Prisons should be rehabilitation places, not vindictive places of punishment, as they have become in America
Can you clarify a bit what the Chazon Ish says? YSH”K!
OK, I chap, you mean it ‘tongue-in-cheek’.
1- the people or companies in Westgate need to hire outside security and install better lighting and cameras around the trouble spots
2- those who do have the heart and the soul to go over and help and direct and give chiyus into these neshamos must realize that this is all that is missing here
It’s also a a gevaldige mitzvah to make programs which is a great part of preventative! Both on Shabbos and during the week, and during the summer/bain hazmanim, – even short programs per day, and during the year. We should add that indeed, these things make life more comfortable, and these things are being done, to a large degree. When one is mechazek, Hashem will help him out more, but if one gets all depressed and angry, it doesn’t help anyone.
I’m not here to blame anyone, just to bring across a message, and I think it is a great piece of advice to give over to young adults.
wow, genius, nobody ever thought of that.
I said ‘it’s being done’..
And I put in the words ‘if one gets all depressed and angry, it doesn’t help anyone’ for the teens reading this! I’m sure they will!
Also, maybe it’s not only about making programs, but that they should feel they’re doing something also. It’s important to work that out somehow. People have to feel they’re getting someplace in life, accomplishing and doing something. If one can get that all from Torah, ashrei ish, but we have to work it out in different ways.
Terrible tragedy!!!!!!!!!
These kids steal cars, break into cars, hold up people with BB guns, attack people with other weapons – and they do it night after night after night with NO repercussions. Jut love them does not work here. Everyone who has/had any similar experience must press charges. Ask a competent rav first. He’ll tell you. And if you see something, call the police, and when they don’t come out, keep calling.
You are 100% correct!!
Exactly. There has to be a point where we come together & say “enough is enough!”. Some kids have a tough time, & they deserve sympathy & should be helped. That absolutely does not mean that they have a license to commit any crimes they please without consequences.
The family can’t have videos of a kid being beaten because it didn’t happen. When a man approached the boys house to speak to the parents since the boy was busy on shabbos vandalizing their apartment while they were away. One kid pepper sprayed the man so he couldn’t see and the boy who has stolen cars, robbed a man with a BB gun, and vandalized an apartment took out a very large knife a began stabbing. I understand the parents are in pain and trying to save their son but somebody elses son could have lost his arm last night.
I am beginning to understand.
How can anyone not think this is a terrible tragedy?
I want to sit down and cry and mourn the churban habayis?
What on earth????
His fault, the kids fault, stealing, vandalizing, beating, pepper spray??? Do you how nuts this sounds?
Its to cry for.
Moderator take this post down. Lets all go do teshuva
Just how I was feeling. At least please block all comments on this sad incident.
Because it’s not all about how you feel. We as a society have a responsibility to get our act together and do something about this or it will only get worse. It might not be the best form to discuss it but people are trying to get a grip on what can be done it’s not all about being nosy. Taking posts down and making believe it doesn’t exist is really not the best idea or very mature way to deal with such issues. Frankly this quite obvious issue has been ignored long enough.
The sane, logical voices on this thread are those who aren’t defending and protecting the villainous teens who literally terrorize a large community. You may offer them love, but not enable or justify their criminal actions.
I am privy to the details of the incident, and can testify on everything holy that the UNARMED adults who had been victimized multiple times by the thugs (and got nothing of substance from the police) came to confront and warn the teens about the episode of that day, which was captured on surveillance cameras. Who wouldn’t do the same, if you knew the identity of the thief who stole your car and vandalized your home?! To their shock, these teens were carrying LETHAL weapons! Those of you who seek to re-integrate gangsters into the once-safe Westgate are inviting burglars, and potentially murderers, to victimize ordinary, law-abiding families.
Don’t enable theft, vandalism and murder; if you do, YOU too will be held accountable for those sins.
The reality is that when you have large groups of teens out of school, hanging out, with drugs and alcohol, the next step is petty crime (vandalization, theft) and then violent crime (armed robbery, murder, human trafficking)
@ Emes
The reality is that most criminals have trauma and abuse in there background. The inner city is full of poverty and abuse – this is why the crime cycle become intergenerational there.
When we have large groups of OTD who are already showing criminal behaviors it would be irresponsible to wait until a tragedy hits before intervening.
Israel has data on dealing with the criminal elements OTD community – specifically the Jerusalem municipality has been successful in breaking up gangs and targeting ringleaders.
This is not about bringing anyone back to yiddeshkiet – there is lots of Kiruv going on and should continue.
This is about creating a safe environment for the rest of Westgate and Lakewood.
Police patrols are great (increase police presence = decreased crime according to most data) but will it become a permanent feature or is it temporary fix?
What other interventions are being made?
Every time I visit Lakewood I see how it has grown from a small suburb to a huge suburban town, to what now is almost a small city – but without the urban infrastructure.
It sounds like it is time for the township to begin to address some of the issues that tend to crop up in cities.
Unfortunately, when both the perpetrator and the victim are Jewish it’s hard to be Dan lekav zechus without vilifying someone else. So either you are going to be blaming the stabber, or for those that would like to give the stabber the benefit of the doubt, it seems the only way to do so (according to above comments) is to vilify the adults who got stabbed and/or wide swaths of the community as molesters and whatnot. So maybe in the spirit of Rosh Hashanah, we should lay off on the comments for now. Although this is a real issue that shouldn’t be ignored or censored, I don’t think the solution we’ve been waiting for will come out of the comments section on TLS.
I’m unable to be a bystander and silently watch my community and my friends get assaulted, robbed, and nearly killed while I silently pray or study harder.
I see firsthand the thugs who roam and terrorize. I see firsthand the victims of terror, who are fearful for their lives and the lives of their families.
I need to loudly express my support for those who suffer, and make it clear to all who can be of assistance that the end to this terror must be immediate. No longer can we ignore!
Tbh I think free schnitzel sandwiches would solve all these problems.
Very likely, invite them for supper – or make supper in shul, and discuss life. OK, someone said in the post on the curfew – a couple od days later – that they do. But certainly all that is being done gets much of the credit for this being extremely uncommon. And this is true, all the harrowing comments written here, as true as anything might possibly be, is the tiniest fraction of Lakewood. I would add that it’s also knegged ayin hara. If we would know the mountains of goodness taking pace, we almost couldn’t even notice this. (Maybe that is why certain matters are perhaps not being dealt with more – according to some commentators!)
R’ Yaakov Kamenetzky said that dealing with ruchiniyus issues is the same as dealing with gashmiyus illness! So, bikkur cholim helping the person heal etc. (And of course, since natural is the real way, this includes eating healthfully and doing major detoxification. So, the lessons to spiritual/emotional are clear. R’ Avigdor Miller says from a posuk in Mishlei that one must filter an amount of one’s past. Like a cheese press which filters off an amount of liquid to be left with the cream, and several other examples the posuk gives, each with its own meaning.
We should have groups to have conversations with young adults. But they should bear in mind that there are always challenge in this world. If not for that, there would be no value to mitzvos!! And having a challenge makes one feel accomplished! But the challenges are real, and at the same time, one is able to overcome them.
They should also know that all yeshiva bochurim have challenges. One needs a lot of seichel to balance one’s thoughts and emotions.
Just like a child, as he gets older, can go to the bathroom on his own, and bathe himself, so too emotionally, one has to take care of his thoughts more and more on his own. But he will have tremendous sechar for it – in both this world and the next!
Rav Shlomo Brevda said that had Bar Kamtza gone to his rav and told him what had happened, he would have told him that he has kappara on all avonos, and any bracha he gives will be niskayem, and anything he touches will turn to gold. He could have had a major life from then on, and people would have certainly learnt from him – as they knew what had happened – and many would have polished their middos following his example. But instead of all this, he caused a Churban – from which we’re still suffering. What did he gain from it? Nothing. Sad. but this is what can happen if one does not think.
Obviously, there was a reason for the churban. And by the way, the Bais Halevy says that the main sinas chinam was the Baryonim who didn’t have proper emunah in Chaza”l. The Baryonim burnt down the storehouses while the siege was taking place. Had the Yidden had those provisions, the mefarshim explain that they could have withstood the siege, as they had enough for 21 years, and it would not have gone on longer than that. As the seforim explain that 21 is like the 21 days of Bain Hamtzorim, so the churban wouldn’t have happened. But the Baryonim didn’t feel they had much from the Bais Hamikdash, they wanted milchama and their atzma’ut – like the umos. Therefore, they did what they did.
Among what we should teach teens – and remind ourselves, is that one has come to this world to do goodness — not to be angry! (Obviously, if one feels there is really an area for improvement, it is a mitzvah to help out, but it is important for a person to get his priorities and goals straight – that he is here in this world for kindness, and to contribute to the world!! Wit that he will feel very happy.
It is also important to make sure people feel included, even if he’s not in yeshiva full-time etc. (And the truth is people do. Teens also need to be taught to appreciate people’s nice words and recognition! And we should give recognition – more and more!)
A few more thoughts, BEZ”H.
About what they claimed self-defense, it’s hard to make out from everything here if it’s true or not. However, I feel it’s important to add that sometimes, such a claim, even if somewhat true, is really just a lack of maturity. The reason is because, often the person is looking for trouble, and so he works himself into a storm, and gets the other person somewhat worked up too, and then acts, with the claim that it is self-defense. He is may also be relying that the other person may not say anything out of fear to make fuss and have an investigation into his exact actions. But all this is severe immaturity and foolishness. The problem is that those who came to confront them, they too should perhaps have been aware of the situation. But they of course never imagined this would happen, so you can’t blame them. It’s complicated.
The sad part is, as I have mentioned in another comment, is that sometimes people are scared to get involved in chesed, because once they see that a person is complicated, they get nervous. It’s indeed a problem, and of course, a person shouldn’t make himself complicated, but people should get more involved. I talk for myself. As much as there are programs and people helping out, there is always room for more.
And to begin with, it’s important that there should be proactive chesed, and we shouldn’t wait for complicated situations such as this.
B”H, such situations are virtually none-existent, as we have mentioned, and that’s in fact why it is news. In other places, a large slew of much more severe crimes, in a short time span, doesn’t even get reported, as it is not news.
(This is also no doubt the reason why the 20k to 80k flu deaths per year in the US aren’t reported, as they’re not news. And so people don’t know about them, and it’s as if man first started dying with Covid, and as if that warranted a shutdown [of the small stores only, not the large ones]. And the Covid Holocaust got front-page news for two years straight. And it is crystal clear, from the book I by McCullough and Leake that I mentioned in another comment, that Grauci Fauci KNEW full well about the efficacy of HCQ, BEFORE the US declared the pandemic – they knew it from drs. around the world, and yet purposely ignored it, AND fought against it. And they knew about Ivermectin soon after declaring the pandemic. They fought against these – which would prevent hospitalization and death, because they wanted to get to a vaccine, from which the profits per person would be exorbitantly more than the very cheap price of HCQ. But they could only get people hypnotized into it by faking a pandemic. Most Covid cases were false positives, and most deaths were easily preventable and were only caused by withholding the proper solutions, and through starvation and with the wrong machine that killed (but they got much more insurance money like that). And the vaccine has inured and killed millions around the world – it injures and kills far more than it possibly saves.
This is a HOLOCAUST, perpetrated purposely, exactly as the Nazis. And for those who call this ‘watering down the Nazis’ and Holocaust denial, we can say that the truth is just the opposite. The Nazis experimented on 6M Jews, and today, Big Pharma is experimenting on 6B people!!! Big Pharma and their severely deranged – psychotic – super billionaire investors have PURPOSELY made a holocaust! Yemach shemam vezichram!
So, let us get everything in perspective. What went on here was silly immaturity. Why exactly it happened, is a good question, but it is simply immaturity. Hopefully good things will come out of it, with people getting more involved and realizing they have much to give over, both in terms of ruchniyus and middos, and jobs and various skills etc.
And it should also be with a geshmakeit in these. I just heard a story about the Chofetz Chayim that he went to take a walk in the fields around Radin ON ROSH HASHANA! A talmid saw and asked him where he is going. He said that to feel the whole idea of din and that Hashem is a Melech, and that we want His good judgement, and that we crown him King (malchiyos), one must be misbonen, contemplate about the greatness of The King! One should look around and see His great works!!!
Today, many people are depressed form panic stories from around the world. The average college student says he has fears, as he is constantly getting bad news updates on his phone. This is foolishness; the Yetzer Hara does this purposely in order to paint a bad image of Hashem’s world R”L, which leads to all kinds of foolishness. It takes work to focus on the positive, but with that, one will have a happy, positive life! (It may be like thinking about the Man. As R’ Avigdor MiIller writes that the mis’onenim were mainly Eruv Rav who got a bit tired of always having to think of what they wanted the Man to taste like, so they complained. Everything takes some thought in life, in order or realize its greatness and to get involved!!)
I want to explain a little more. A Yid said over by Hurricane Sandy that he heard a whole shmuez about how a hurricane works. It starts with warm air rising and cool air going down, and water vapor rises from the ocean. (Hurricanes can only start over oceans, and only with very specific temperature etc. conditions.) The storm builds up and gets larger and larger, until it’s an enormous storm of water droplets and wind spinning powerfully like a large merry-go-round, tens of miles in diameter. (Interestingly, the empty eye in the center is calm. It can be some twelve miles across!) The nimshal is that so too in middos, sometimes things start small – some kaas, some lashon hara, etc. and it builds up until it becomes a huge storm of sinas chinam. It’s no good. People must have the strength to prevent such things. But above all, a person must learn about his OWN strengths – to do nice things! And it is something for people to get involved and teach and coach and compliment. In other words, a person must realize that certain ‘normal’ ways may not exactly be so normal; there is much room for improvement. And when things don’t improve, it’s difficult for others, and it frustrates people. The gedolim know they have a responsibility to help when there are difficulties. When various questions come up, they weigh in and give advice. For example, a classical question such as how much homework to have – or if to have at all, and a million other such classic questions. People will discuss these things among themselves, and then will agree that the gedolim must be consulted. So, the gedolim have at-length discussions with various people involved, and give personal guidance, and then give shiurim which are then distilled in their seforim. The seforim must be widely read, so all are on the same page – pun-intended! If not, there is suffering, and it is very disturbing. A child wonders ‘who will help me?!’ He feels double-trapped. But there are seforim, and people must make a point of reading them.
(By the way, about chazara, a major mechanech, Rav Tzvi Greenhaus of E”Y, once said in a shiur that a father learning with a son should not be like a farher, rather, it should be that he is having nachas from his him. He said that therefore, you typically don’t even have to correct a mistake. The main thing is that the son should be happy to say over to his father and bring him nachas.
However, if a father gets uptight that his son doesn’t know something, it may cause the boy to start crying, or to be resentful.
If there is a wild stampeded of junk food, and then we praise those who [seem to] help with cancer to the sky, that’s a problem. People must get more involved in preventative health. Many do, but they keep it a secret, as they are afraid of the laitzanei hador. A person must work on his middos. People are gevaldig, but, as in all professions, there is room for improvement in middos etc. as well. Each business and service provider knows where he can do better. If so, he should look into the matter, and at least make it available. Caterers should not say ‘we serve the standard soda’. They should ask ‘are you sure you want soda?’ They should add: “People are becoming more health conscious, we only serve it if you ask for it, and then we charge an extra service fee.” If this were said, many people would agree not to have it, as most people are just doing what ‘everyone’ does, as they don’t want to be different (which technically make sense), and they don’t want people to have tainos on them, and they don’t want cutesy comments. But if they can reply to the commentators ‘the caterer said this is what is done now’, it makes it much easier for everyone.
Each person must know his abilities and use them. And, as a rav said in a shiur, a parent should know how much influence he has on his children, they really do look up to him.
(By the way what I said ’SEEM to help with cancer’ is because chemo is poison. The real way to go is with detoxification from the junk that is causing the cancer, and of course, healthful eating etc. There are entire books that this has helped tens of thousands worldwide get out of the worst cancers – the types that that drs. give up on. There are also entire natural healing clinics. But they are kept quiet, as otherwise, Big Pharma might kill those who run them. But as long as they still make their big money, they leave them alone.)
In general, once you start thinking about helping out, you realize that there is much to help out yeshiva bochurim as well – with a nice word etc, and I’m happy to say I do so, and more and more over the years. There are many things to understand and discuss. It is a big mitzvah to do so. And to give compliments and recognition, so that the person should feel good. Not to constantly say things that are on edge, argumentative, and with suspicion etc. A person must remember that ‘kol haposel bemumo posel’, and as the world says, ‘one who points at others, has three finger pointing back at himself’. And if one walks around suspicious of everyone all the time, it’s very uncomfortable for people. And if one acts that way to people who look up to him, he can really hurt them. One must use great caution and seichel. Why should one get all suspicious when one doesn’t perfectly understand certain things? How about thinking that maybe that person is doing something great; greater than what one is used to?!?! Perhaps he is on a greater level of Ahavas Yisroel etc. But sadly, a person doesn’t think that way, and if he sees someone, for example, giving a younger fellow a pat on the back, already his mind might swirl with suspicion. And he’s not even embarrassed to go over and make the person crazy about it, or to talk to the one who received it, and tell him to keep away from that person. All these things are absolute disasters, aveiros chamuros and meshunadig am haaratzus. It’s an emotional STAB, it breaks up friendships, and it’s very, very wrong. (And to say ‘well, he can defend himself’, that is severely deranged immaturity, just as one wouldn’t want others to do that to him, and as we discussed in the beginning.)
The gedolim have said that physical affection is a great thing. As R’ Dovid Kaplan, longtime rebbi in Ohr Sameach of E”Y, wrote in an article in Hamodia, several years ago. People must educate themselves on such matters. People have all kinds of ideas swirling through their minds, and they can sometimes get very aggressive – and with little embarrassment, and they don’t take into consideration – or may just not know – the level of the one whom they are talking to or complaining on. It’s hard to criticize this mentality when these thigs were more common years ago.
But there was a milchama, and gedolim said that it was more than just for B”A Lamakom – like talking in Shul. B”A lechavero too, had much room for improvement. So, this is not to come with tainos on Yidden CH”V, but these points are very important.
(The CH”CH in michtav #18 talks about how Mashiach hasn’t come yet – despite the tzaros, in order that we can be prepared with kavod to greet Mashiach in an honorable way.
R’ Zev smith once spoke about how much we stand to gain when we take people at face value and say ‘this is who the person is’, and not worry so much about changing them. Then it is much easier to respect the person.
R’ Schafier in his book on shalom bayis ‘The Ten Dumb Mistakes…’ speaks about this too.
So, what we said about years ago, one must indeed be happy with he received, and not worry too much about what could have been better and different. Things were good, one received much, people did their best for him, for all practical purposes, and now he can take things further. But there are lessons being taught, and they are important.)
And sadly, what we mentioned above about getting another person worked up, was also a mentality – or tactic – that was more common in the past. And if you’ll ask the person about it, he’ll tell you he’s just acting natural, and doesn’t mean anything personal, and it’s just that he had concerns etc. This all must be worked on. And it comes down to ‘what do people want?!’ What is the goal of life?!
We must give credit where it is due, but one must ask himself what his goals are! If goals are shallow, then nonsense can creep in. If one has lofty goals, then he is involved with lofty matters.
But still, even with people who are accomplishing all sorts of great things, it is still a mitzvah to give compliments. As people are always nervous that they could have done better, so, by complimenting them on the good, it relieves the person. On the other hand, making a person crazy about small things, hurts him, as it’s hard for him to argue with, but he thinks ‘what about all the good I have done?!’ It’s true the purpose of life is to grow, but much more growth is encouraged through compliments and recognition than through jabs – as small as they may be. (Except maybe a friendly jab in the ribs!)
By the way, R’ Kaplan also talks how we Yidden never claimed to be perfect. We do know we are Hashem’s chosen people which, by the way means we do not recognize any other religions. ‘Religion’ by definition means God’s chosen people. But this doesn’t mean we claim to be perfect – and all the time. We strive for perfection and greatness – to keep Hashem’s Torah and to go in the ways of all good people all around us, but a few uncomfortable incidents do not disqualify us. (And of course, we respect all nations as human beings, and appreciate the services we receive. ‘Er and we don’t appreciate the Democratic Nazis – as we spoke about above – to say the least!!!)
What we’re saying here scratches the surface, and of course can be expanded on much.
May we have much Siyatta Dishmaya.
KSVCH”T!