Last Friday, a baby boy was born in a New Bruswick hospital to a Lakewood family at 8:01 p.m. and 21 seconds. Shkiah in New Brunswick was at 6:49 p.m and 34 seconds, which makes it 71 minutes after Shkiah, leaving room for question Halachically as to when the Bris should take place-on Friday or on Shabbos. There were a number of questions which arose, including: 1) Where exactly the hospital is geographically located, 2) A higher floor in the hospital may have a later Shkiah than a lower floor and 3) Perhaps the hospital clock may not have been completely accurate to name a few.
However, Harav Ahron Kotler Zatzal of BMG held, that one should refrain from doing Melacha until 72 minutes after Shkiah on Shabbos. Meaning, according to Reb Ahron Zatzal, the baby boy who was born 71 minutes after Shkiah, was still born on Friday. Therefore, although the family of the newborn held that it was already Shabbos, out of respect of Reb Ahron Zatzal and the Minhag Hamokom, the family decided to take the Bris out of town-where it will take place on Shabbos. TLS.
6:59 to 8:01 is 62 minutes not 72
to y:
Was 6:49-we accidently wrote 6:59. Was corrected. Thank you for pointing it out.
the same thing happened to me about a year ago with my sons shabbos bris! it turned out to be a beautiful experience. Mazel Tov to the parents and lots of nachas.
Firsty its NOT minhag Hamokom, (maybe minhag hayeshiva) im SURE their are hundreds of ppl. in lakewood who dont keep the chumra of 72 min , second please define and clarify a halachic time of ‘birth’
thats only a chumra by motzai shabbos but friday night its forsure shabbos at shkia
you probably meant geographicaly
We had a bris in the family done in lakewood in such a case and no mohel would do it, Cantor Leiber had to be pulled out of retirement to do the bris
To 3:02 p.m
Thank you.
its a safaik so the bris cant be on friday or shabos or sunday so the bris should be on monday
he, – not acording to R”T
another mistake: “leaving room for question Halachically as to when the Bris should take place-on Friday or on Shabbos”; forsure not friday!!! either shabbos or sunday!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you probably meant Kotler
To 3:30
Yes-that’s who I meant. Ty.
Same thing just happened to my baby: shkia was at 8.53 and they said the baby was born 8:54, and the rav paskined: if there is a sofek you do it sunday.
When questions come up in the present, they arise.
When questions came up in the past, they arose.
Therefore, “a number of questions arised ” should be “a number of questions arose.”
Was your spell/grammar check turned off?
In the time of the Talmud they did not yet know about different time zones.
They did not know that when it was an hour before Shabos in Eretz Yisroel, it was already Shabos in Bovel.
When it became Shabos on Har Sinai for Hashem by Matan Torah, it was still an hour before Shabos In Eretz Yisroel.
The Talmud never discusses which time zone Hashem uses for His own keeping of Shabos, or for him to do Makas Bechoros in Mitzraim.
Rav AK did not hold that the baby was born on Friday ,as you state . He possibly held that there is a mokom sofek lechumrah and we cant make the bris on Shabbos . It is certainly incorrect to state that anybody would hold that the baby was born on Friday . Even according to RT this was well towards the very end of Bain Hashmoshos ,even if yiu hold that RT held 72 minutes all over the world .
Here we go again, ‘poskining shaylos’ on the internet. Even the ‘vayber’
know more then these ‘boich sevahres’.
Just thinking if they would of used the stairs (not the SHABBOS elevator) the baby would of been born on shabbos (a few min. later)
and they would of had all those ‘segulahs’ of a ‘shabbos bris’.
to annoymous 5:11, who do you think you are referring to Rav Aaron as Rav AK? Are you his classmate or friend? a bissel kovod hatorah please.
Its interesting that you didnt find fault with referring to Rabeinu Tam as RT . I think that using someones initials when quickly typing on a blackberry to save time is not in any way a pechisus hakovod for anybody . Your reference to him as Rav Aron is very mechibedig in your opinion ?Is he your friend or classmate ?. If you want to be proper then write Moreinu Hagoan Harav Aaron Kotler Zecher Tzadik Vekodosh Livrocho
If HaRav Aaron Kotler Zatzal really held that a baby born 71 minutes after Shkia Friday night should not have a Shabbos Bris then the proper Kovod for Harav Aaron Zatzal would be to postpone the Bris till the first day there is no Sofek and allowable Al Pi Halacha. Making it out of town on Shabbos would still be a Bizayon to HaRav Aaron Zatzals Kovod.
There are many people who hold you should refrain from doing Melacha till 72 minutes after Shkia on Motzei Shabbos yet would still consider this baby to be born on Shabbos L’Chatchila. I do not know how HaRav Aaron Zatzal would of Paskened in this case and will assume that the article is incorrect in its conclusion comparing the end of Shabbos for Melacha as a basis for not allowing a Shabbos Bris in this case.
we dont pasken based on rav aaron’s “kovod” , the only halachik consideration would be ‘minhag hamokom’ (doesnt apply in our day acording to reb moishe and Many other poskim) the parents should follow their minhag, and ask thir local rabbi.
“In the time of the Talmud they did not yet know about different time zones.
They did not know that when it was an hour before Shabos in Eretz Yisroel, it was already Shabos in Bovel.
When it became Shabos on Har Sinai for Hashem by Matan Torah, it was still an hour before Shabos In Eretz Yisroel.
The Talmud never discusses which time zone Hashem uses for His own keeping of Shabos, or for him to do Makas Bechoros in Mitzraim.”
I don’t see what time zones has anything to do with this. Shkia is at a different time at every location, depending on latitude, longitude, and altitude.
BTW I recall seeing in a sefer (don’t remember which) that pshat in “Vovarti Beretz Mitzrayim, etc.” is that makkas bechoros was at every location at the precise moment of chatzos at that spot. so Hashem passed across mitzrayim from east to west killing the bechorim. And that is why Moshe said “Kachatzos” because it was not all at one time, but by Hashem it says “Bachatzos” because at each location it was precisely on time.
But if the mother ate fleishigs six hours before she gave birth you can subtract an hour so it is into the sixth hour and then the bris can for sure be on friday.
That Pshat in ‘Vovarti’, must have been written by later Achronim.
Our Chacmei Hatalmud, and early Rishonim, entertained the notion that at night the sun is above the blanket, we call Shomaim.
They did not believe in time zones.
There is a Gemoroh, that the Malochim only say Shirah at night so as not to interfere with the Shirah that Klal says during the day. The question is, which time zone. The Gemoroh of course doesn’t say.
The Chachmei Hatalmud also held that the moon has its own light like the sun in a smaller version. Hence it is able to shine at night while the sun is hiding on top of the Shomaim.
How sad that you are so stupid almost crazy , to entertain the notion that the amoiroim didnt know that their are different time zones! THEY KNEW E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G!!! “Hafoch bah vehafoch ba dekolah bah” “istakel beoiraysa ubara alma” . you talk about chachmei hatalmud as if your smarter than them! LOL
you dont even have the most basic understanding of how to learn a gemora, you have to understand that gemora is not a NY times articall that you can dissmiss as missinformed. please go back to cheider, for your own good.
It might be less respectful to to push into Chazal, today’s technology regarding timezones, that they never agreed to.
The fact is that the Rabeinu Taam says in Ksubus that the Chachmei Hatalmud never really agreed to the Ch. Umos Ho’olum, and stuck to their belief, that the Sun travels at night from west to east above the sky.
Rashi in Rosh Hashana 24A line 12 says B’Pashtus that at night the sun is above us above the blanket of the sky. So the Levannah must have its own light.
In Mesechte Shaabos when the Gemoroh says that the moon steals from the sun, Rashi doesn’t say that its because its reflection of the sun. Rather he says that its because the Levana sometimes comes out during the day.
Tosfos in Psochim 94A says K’SheHachamo B’emtza Horokeah He Brosh Kol Odom. Also see the Rashash, overthere, that according to todays knowledge, that the earth is like a ball, Tosfos Kashe is not Shver.
See Pirkeh DR Elieaer that at night there are special “Night Malochim” that pull the sun from west to east.