Some claim that the schools have no right to deny the children from going to school. Why is it the school’s job to make sure your child gets an education? Why won’t you open a school yourself for these children? Why does my school have to take in your kids, but you yourself won’t open a school? Why is it my responsibility more than yours?
I have every right in the world to open a school with a certain hashkafa, so that children could learn in school in an environment that promotes certain tznius standards. There is no question that a child that comes from a family where tznius is looked down upon will have a negative influence on the other children. It is definitely my right to run my school as I want it.
Just like it is your right not to open a school and instead sit on TLS and complain.
Now, don’t get me wrong. We try and try to get these kids into schools. Most of these parents end up conforming to the rules. But those few yechidim that just won’t cover their hair, I see no reason to help them. They want to live in Lakewood, they want to force us to educate our children in an environment that lowers the tznius standards. They feel its their right to live in Lakewood, and to get accepted into a school, and to also thumb their noses at the tznius standards of the school, —– they feel its their right!!!! Then they make us all feel guilty by saying “how can you deny a child an education”
Well, I got news for ya!!
Its also my right to educate my child the way I see fit, with my standards, and to not have to let you in. It’s my right.
You also have the right to open your own school with your standards, and not accept any black hats. It’s your right.
I do agree with one thing. The community as a whole has a responsibility to provide an education to every Jewish child. So all those who feel the pain of these children, please step up to the plate, and start a school!
But the individual schools have every right to run their schools however they want, just as you have the right to complain.
The chutzpa I was talking about, is when we work very very hard to convince the schools to accept some of these children, by promising them that the parents will actually begin to cover their hair all the way etc, and the the parents just thumb their noses and say their not changing, and then blame us for not helping them, and still expect that schools should take them in AS IS.
And then they complain that no one cares about them and no one helps them,
Chutzpa!
For you to have this letter to the public would suggest that:
1. You own a school.
2. You have internet. (contradiction right there!)
3. You claim to be holier than the rest of us who don’t exactly live up to your standards to be allowed into your school.
4. It’s a shame that you aren’t more open to accepting stranded neshomos caught in the middle of nonsense. It’s the kids that are suffering, not the parents. The parents have already gone to school and chose to live here most probably to better themselves, not to take the whole oilam down with them.
You are right that if you open a school, you do have the right to have rules and guidelines. But just wait until you get all those perfect parents together and YOU will soon be out as head of your school because there are always those to object to something the hanhala does, and do one wrong thing and you will find yourself on the other side of the fence (i.e. N.O., B.R., and other fine schools that had turmoil). So watch your step.
You know, as angry as this post sounds, there are some valid points here I think. I know of a specific case over the years where all it would have taken for someones children to be accepted to schools would have been conforming to basic tznius standards. Not wearing a burka. Not Meah Shearim standards. Just plain basics. And you know what? She just would not do it! And then she was angry at this one and that one. And she blamed this one and the other one. But she would not dress or behave modestly. So, why is that then the schools responsibility? She feels that she has rights? So does the school, no?
I do believe that most of the problems are blue shirt VS white shirt
How do you justify that? I dont think tznius there is an issue
This particular case is an exception-
The rest is just “not as yeshivish” now thats a Chutzpa!
OK, you’ve made your statement. I disagree, and so do many others.
Now please have a godol B’torah give his haskamah. This is all talk, we as a community demand that our children are brought up with the right hashkofos, in addition to the high standards of Tznius.
Do you as a school owner also make sure that no one is take Gov’t programs that don’t deserve it?
You (letter writer) need to go back to school for an English education.
Just wondering do you ask for and expect financial support from the community for this private enterprise?
Most local schools get very little financial support from the public except for parents ,grandparents ,relatives and friends and business associates of the school owners . All of the above people generally agree with the acceptance standards of the school . If schools in town got real meaningful financial support from the general public ,them they would definitely feel an achrayus to take in more people .
I disagree totally with the writer.
What more do you need than to have the child adhere to the standards of the school. What a zechus it is to help these neshomos.
Cheshbonos don’t work.
Selfish post.
“My right to this, my right to that.” Thank G-d you don’t own a school, a selfish Mechanech is a “steera meenay uvey.”
If you open a school, allegedly you love children and love teaching children and love watching how they grow. A real Mechanech never uses the word “I.” A real mechanech would never have written the above letter.
Next, enough with the parents already. Just enough. In the real world out there, the focus is on the child. Can we work with this child or not. Be very accepting of people and teach the CHILDREN. And maybe if a parent sees how much nachas her child brings to the house and what a great job the school is doing with her child, the mother will conform to the “school standard” out of her own volition as not to confuse her beautiful nachas bearing daughter.
Enough with the parents, educate the CHILDREN.
Ok, I am the original poster. Thank you TLS for reposting my comment. I do sound kind of upset in this post, however, it was a reply to another poster, who replied to my original post.
My original post explained, that I am friends with two people in this town who work very hard every year to get children into schools. I am partly involved in the process as well. (Personally, I work very hard for a living, from morning till night, what you call a “baalhabos”. – I don’t own any school, nor do I have anything personally with anyone who owns a school)
I was explaining the frustration that we go through when we work very hard to convince the schools to take in these children, and all the schools ask is that the parents adhere to BASIC STANDARDS of tznius, NOTHING MORE. And yet some of these parents absolutely refuse to give an inch! So naturally the schools won’t take them. And then they get upset at us for not helping them.
So someone posted a reply, that every child has a “right” to an education, and the schools must take every child, even if the parents won’t adhere to basic tznius standards of the school.
To that, I replied my above post, the jist of which is, that just as every child has a right to an education, every person has a right to open any school with whatever hashkafa he he wants. A parent who refuses to properly cover her hair still has a right to have her child educated, but so do the schools have a right to not accept her. Let this parent make her own school, and no one will be able to stop her, because she has a right.
That was my point.
The writer has some valid points. But what about looking at this as a kiruv opportunity. The original Lakewood might not be thrilled about lower tznius standards entering our community, but maybe instead of fighting it, if we accept that this is happening we can act accordingly. It’s also an opportunity of making a kiddush Hashem.
Mr. 11
Great abstract idea in theory!
Any ideas????
It’s unrealistic to ask any school to compromise on its standards. But we still have to face that “reality” the the lower standards have arrived. So what do we do about it?
Let’s open a school special for them. That would be a great Kiddush Hashem.
Frankly, I think the best people to run such a school would be those that are so animated and passionate about this topic on TLS.
Growing up in Lakewood and attending the schools there, I do believe that you must conform to the rules of the school. Example: the school I attended required us to wear thigh highs or tights to school, while at home, this was not what my
parents held. We wore thigh highs/tights to school, and although we may not have at home, we understood that it was a school rule, and must be obeyed. You are correct in saying that parent’s should conform to school rules, but what happens to these innocent neshomes that get left with nothing because their parents are stubborn? That’s a huge injustice to a child who does not make decisions on how their parents dress. I think that the main argument here is that the child is left without a school and that it’s the community responsibility to make sure they are placed. The child is not in control of how their parents behave- why should they be held responsible? It is hatzalas neshomos to put these children into school, and whoever is involved should do their utmost to save these drowing neshomos.
i dont understand how this tow runs? everyone has standards whether i show an inch of hair or wear my snood ill my eye brows we all have standards and personally i chose to live in lakewood even though i am not a standard lakewood person because i want my family to be in a growth oriented town, but we are all about judging instead how bout looking at people and learning from them in areas that they are ahead of you in, davening shmiras halashon…. in stead of basing people solely on their exterior, i would say thats a bit shallow.
there are some valid points being made on both sides. Suppose I go to the length of shielding my child from popular culture, like movies and secular music, because I dont want them absorbing non jewish hashkofos. I provide my kid with kosher entertainment, etc. then he goes to school and comes home, a sixth grader, talking about movies and stuff. would you be upset?
suppose you accept a child because after all you are teaching the child, not her parents. You stress in school how important and beautiful tznius is. then she goes home and sees her mother dressed in a way that contradicts everything the school tells her. Is she going to choose her mother’s way? is she going to come to school challenging the hanhala’s rules, because her parents are not on the same page? is it going to affect the other kids in the class?
do you want your kid exposed to things you dont want them exposed to?
that being said, there SHOULD be a school more left leaning in Lakewood, there are enough people now. In other towns there are different schools catering to different types. Here for some reason everyone wants the same crowd. (yeshivish) . If there was a quality school for families like this, it would probably solve some of the stress. Also, I have noticed, having been around Lakewood for twenty years, that if a school like this does open up within a few years they “change directions” and move toward a more yeshivish parent body.
why is this? why wouldnt they want to fill this important niche?
If a school opened up with lower standards the same parents who don’t want to conform to the standards if the “high” standard school would not want to go. Fact.
I happen to agree with the poster. I go to great legnths to shield my kids from the outside world
1) no computer at home
2) no radio
3) no outside magazines – even yiddishe ones
just to give you an idea.
Why do I do this? because I want my childs chinuch to come from my wife and I, let all their hashkafos come from us and not from anywhere else. My 4 year old does not even know what a tv is, last time he was by his zaida, he thought it was a mirror .
Having said that- if there were to be someone in my childs class who had a tv, or was using a radio detrimentally (like following sports, or getting terrible yidios form all the shmutz on the radio) or or somethign else, I would not permit it. I don’t care if its not the childs fault, let the parents change or go elsewhere. We aren ot here to compramise our standards because someone else does not want to.
I just Rewant to repeat something that hagoan rave steinman said today avrom aveno wouldn’t get into a school but esof and yesmuel Would as far as yeshivas who only want reb akiva as a Talmud asidin liten es hadin
I normally don’t post comments but this discussion is ridiculous! Go to the Catholic world. Private schools are so exclusive and impossible to get into. And if your child doesn’t fit their bill, you are rejected! And the parents understand that you have to meet their standard and if not, you get the boot.
Why is a frum school different? If there are people who don’t want to conform and therefore their children are rejected, then they are being selfish and if their children lose out it is their fault. Since when do we have an achrayus to have to educate others at the expense of ourselves?
If I’m on a sinking boat, I have an obligation to save myself first. And if I’m on a boat that will sink if YOU come on, I am allowed to refuse your entry!
This attitude where everyone can do whatever they want and still get everything is pathetic at best and harmful at worst. To yourselves, your children and to everyone else who meets you.
No wonder our children are turning out the way they are. With parents like all of you, its really not a question anymore!
You may have all your rights the way you want them. At Har Sinai you definitely had no right to say I don’t want to stand near this one.
To the person that quoted Rav Shteinamn, that Avrohom Avinuy would not get any schools today because his father was Terach:
Big news:
If you were offered a shiduch for your daughter, and his name was Avraham Avinu, you would say NO, because his father is Terach.
So before you complain about how schools wouldn’t accept Avraham Avinu, do some introspection about why YOU wouldn’t take Avraham Avinu as a son in law.
(Rav Shteinman would probably be upset at you for that too.)
The comparison to original lakewood is not accurate. Before the lakewood Cheder everyone went to the same school regardless of background, there was one major difference the families who were less frum were that from lack of knowledge not B’davka less frum. The sad aspect of todays situation is that the parents went through yeshivos and Bais yaakovs and want to be less than what they know they should be. Which is why they are so insistant on not conforming they are rebelling. Such people will only being others down as they do not want to change. The school has to accept them as they are as they have no intention of conforming to the school.