Having grown up in Lakewood, and attending only the frumest, best schools, I do have to commend the community for the unique sensitivity Lakewood has managed to uphold in the area of tznius. (I distinctly remember when I was in high school and we were taking midterms, we started the school day later, so that we could end later and there wouldn’t be girls walking home the exact time yeshiva ends).
However, after attending 2 classmates’ weddings’ this week I feel there is a big issue that needs to be addressed.
At one chassuna, the chassan and his brother came to the mechitza to dance with his mother and sister. The kalla, without thinking, went over to dance with her mother- in-law, sister-in-law, and chassan completely forgetting that her brother in law was forbidden to see her dance, much less dance in the same circle as her! Additionally, I noticed men coming to talk to their wives and without even realizing, they ended up just standing and watching the woman dancing around the kalla! It is frightening to me, because these are very frum weddings. People who learn all day, and keep the highest standards of kashrus, yet somehow this aspect of tznius just gets ignored.
At the last wedding I attended, I watched the men strolling in and out of woman’s section during dancing and wondered what the founders of our community would say. In “All for the Boss”, R’ Yakkov Yoseph would come to each wedding with signs saying that men may not observe the woman dancing. how sad would it be if we had to start this trend again in an ir hatorah?
In conclusion, I’m asking all of you, THINK BEFORE YOU ACT! We CANNOT get caught up in emotions, and the sanctity of a Jewish home should not be starting out with taaruvos!
And please put some good food by the shmorg on the men side so I shouldn’t be tempted to go across the mechitza to get my sesa
me chicken
EXCELLENT POINTS!! People lose their brains too often.
take this from a litvak
chassidim by thier mitzvah matnts are A LOT MORE tznius
than the show us litvakks do whe n the kallah “comes in”
bochurim gyrating acting loose and silli
take this from an old litvisher yid
go to a chassidisher wedding and see their koved rosh
sorry but true
and please make sure that the Machitza extends end to end so that I can be mesameach the kallah without having to look over my shoulder and check, and then have to be a wallflower if I don’t want to compromise my tznius
IF that’s all thats worrying you then we will be ok.
the minhag is for the K to come over to the men for a keizad merakdim
Could someone tell me this new “Minhag” that has not only the Kallah coming over to sit by the Chason, but both Mothers also sitting there. Grow up your not the Kallah anymore.
would everyone mind their own buisness.
This should be ur biggest problem!
there is no question,thay you should absolutely be concerned that you can see the excitment on some of these “bochrim” when they dance in front of the kallah and other women that tag along to watch !(especialy when they drink at weddings which is another issue)Years ago at my chasuneh,you can see some ladies peeking from behind the curtain by keitsat merakdin but not stand right in the back of the choson and kallah during this !!! .that is not what chazal had in mind!
And anyone with hair sticking out from their snood, please go the mirror and fix it. There is no heter and it’s against ‘das moshe’.
Doesn’t matter if it’s not your biggest problem. It has been brought to your attention – be aware
#6
It’s called Minhag America
the writer has a valid point and this is a problem that should be addressed, having bochurim gyrating in front of the kallah with all the bochurim looking on isnt betznius. forget about looking at women dance what is the point of a mechitza if people just walk over and stare?
and yes this is a big problem and if we dont stop and address it it only gets worse
Interesting points: Now- Does this happen more often than the two weddings that you have been at? How many weddings have you been at that this has happened?
How much time do you spend examining the men and boys coming over to the Mechitza? To me, it sounds like to much.
However, if you are truly worried and would like to put an end to this- as you call it- lack of Tznius- my suggestion would be- when you notice the men (and you seem to notice a lot) when you notice the men start to come in- well- stop the woman from dancing. After all, you sound very strong minded and would certainly do anything and everything to prevent Isurim from taking place.
Perhaps prepare big huge signs that say “Woman stop dancing- dont alow men to me Michshal” Or “L’ifnei Ivar Lo Sitain Michshol.”
But I believe would be best is, that if and when such a thing happens- that at various points during the wedding men should happen to pass through the woman’s section while they are dancing- perhaps you- yes you sjhould step outside for a minutes breather- it might do th ewhole world much good.
Kol hakavod to the original writer for addressing this issue as it is completely uprooting the Yiddishe Ta’am a Jewish wedding is supposed to have. I whoheartedly agree with the comments of the ‘old litvak’. Gut gezogt!!
Then we wonder why there is a Shiduch Crisis!!
#17 What the heck
My grandparents had the first mechitza at a wedding in williamburg.
As my grandmother told me the spiritual mechitza was much stronger that today’s physical mechitza. So today we MUST make sure a mechitza is up!!!!
IF THE MINHAG IS KEITZAD MERAKIDIM LIFNEY HAKALAH IT SHOULD BE RESERVED FOR MAYBE THE CHOSON, THE FATHER AND FATHER INLAW ROSHEI YESHIVA AND MAYBE BROTHERS.
The dancing today is disgusting. The gyrating and trying to be a rapper /,gang member dancing is out of place. What happened to yiddisih dancing.
And for mother in laws to come to the men side, whos menorah is that ?
We are losing our touch. We need to keep our menorah and values if not we will chas shalom be no different than other religions that slowly assimilate.
I am completely appalled by this minhag america that the kallah comes in to the chosson’s side. She is mamash machshil many bochurim and adults alike. I would like to see this minhag stopped. Its a nevala!!!!
We need the shichina so badely to be amongst us. the shichina only wil rest in a place of tznius.the point this writer braught out is 100%. None is asked to change anything over night but does it hurt to be a litle more aware and a little more careful? Even if its just waiting a foot further than u usually wait for ur wife?
#19 – Why dont you write your own article- that way I can respond and say:
Walk out during those few moments- your breather will in fact help not just yourself, but the whole wide world.
Why were you in the ladies section?
To the author,
All the posters razzing on you, ARE THE GUILTY ONES!!
You obviously lost touch with what is called normal ehrlich frum yidden. Tzinius is needed. There is no reason the mechitza has to come crashing down when the Kalah comes in.
If you have no Mesorah or rav that directs you then obviously you will see nothing wrong.
This town was built on yeshiva beni Torah values. For those that cannot respect it-move.
Ps I work all day and were color shirts. The way a person respects others and himself , his work ethics, his language and such is what makes a person frum.
The writer is absolutely correct. Any form of dancing by women in the presence of men is Assur. Period. As for men dancing in front of the Kallah there is nothing wrong with that at all. Actually it’s a beautiful mitzvah. For people like #20, they need a personal schmooze or medication or both. …..There is another pirtza that perhaps is the cause for this laxity. It is the MALE photographer and videographer on the ladies side throughout the entire wedding. This is an atrocious and disgusting sin, and YES all the neshei kodesh including the Rebbetzins are all partaking in this terrible sin. Many have tried to rationalize that it’s his parnassa and he is busy working. Baloney. And no explanation is necessary, because if you need explanation, you need the same schmooze and medication that #20 needs. So face it…”Avaira goreres Avaira”. Make the extra effort to have ladies only on the ladies side of the mechitza (what a novel idea) and give all the men who wander over a cold hard stare and you will be doing a tremendous zechus for Klal Yisroel
is it minhag America to not ask or follow your Rosh Yeshiva’s hardracha on this and ALL issues? What a lame excuse.
Its funny when I come to lakewood people look at me and call me modren cause I dress a litlle diffrent than the reguler lakewood guy. But last week I came to lakewood for a wedding and when I saw what was going over there my heart was crying inside how can a marriage start off like this where is the bracha? Do you think hashem like this seen? And what bothers me even more is some of these coments that people wrote back not understanding what’s wrong with this. The wedding night is a VERY holy night and we can’t ruin with our stubid garabge because we just can’t control our desires. So next time you some in lakewood not exactly wearing a white shirt don’t call him modern check out the inside first because it not about how you look from the outside its about WHAT YOU REALLY ARE INSIDE…
#24 you wrote: “Many have tried to rationalize that it’s his parnassa and he is busy working. Baloney. And no explanation is necessary, because if you need explanation, you need…”
Why is it baloney? You must explain yourself. Unless you are a hothead that wires things for public view without a rational.
Further on you also wrote: “and give all the men who wander over a cold hard stare and you will be doing a tremendous zechus for Klal Yisroel”
That is K’neged Halacha on a few points. Firstly Klal Yisroel does not give ‘cold hard stares’ to anyone. It is simply not our Jewish way. Second, while a woman should not dance before a man, surely she should not try to get his attention by staring at him?!
#26 You wrote: “The wedding night is a VERY holy night and we can’t ruin with our stubid garabge because we just can’t control our desires.”
I believe that your entire diatribe is reflective of your internal struggle of that which you wrote above, and seek to paint everyone else with. Who is to say that anyone but you falls into the catagory of being stupid garbage and being unable to to control desires? Talk for yourself.
Why not have the wedding in separate halls altogether? That way there is little to no chance of men and women crossing mechitzas when they are in completely different buildings. (Post chuppah, of course.)
when my friend got married he went to rav yosef rosenblum shlita for a bracha to have a happy successful marriage the rav said if you want brachah in your home do not let your wife come in the mens side to sit and have people dance in front of her I know others that rav yosef said the same thing to to this gadol that is all that’s on his mind when a chasan comes before his wedding and he guaranted a better marriage with all the shalom bayis issues today take his advice stop coming over to the mens side
Reply to”I asked daas torah” you are write about the videographer and in mant places including america there is a women doing the womens side. Regarding the idea that the kallah comes into the man’s side, this does not happen in eretz yisroel and also not in america by people who think about it. It is disgusting.
I have to agree with Modern man.I dont think the heintiche bochrim realize how wild they look to Baal Habatim who are not in Lakewood..
To Modern guy: you spent the better part of six sentences saying nothing. What did you see at this Lakewood Chasunah that made “your hart cry” (a feat all of it’s own)?
im the original writer of this article and i just want tao clear up one point. I am fully aware of the minhag of keitzad merakdim. what i was talking about in the article was when the CHASSAN and his brother danced WITH not infront of the kalla. there is no minhag that allows the kallas brother in law to dance WITH the kalla.
and for jack, I am a lady
Yasher koach for bringing this to everyone’s attention.
Several other points come to mind: The rabbanim instituted simcha guidelines several years ago, but nobody paid attention to them.
The men will always come onto the ladies side to shmooze with their mother/sister/aunt/wife. Aside from being assur, this makes the women very uncomfortable.
The women will never go into the men’s side to shmooze at all.
Male photographers on the ladies side get in the way of the ladies dancing and also make us very uncomfortable. (Rav Abadi is against using male photogs on the ladies side.)
Some of the kallah’s friends have been shrieking and cheering at the badekin and when the kallah enters. This is a total breach of tznius and very unladylike.
The girls have started doing wild dances and have even taken to skipping and galloping. It’s a chasuna, not gym class. Just because there’s a mechitza doesn’t mean they should lose all sense of decorum.
As for the so called music, leibidik does not mean loud. Volume and tempo are two different things. If the guests have to shout in order to be heard by the person sitting next to them the music is way too loud. (Eli Wax played at my son’s chasuna. The music was batampte, yeshivish, leibidik, but not loud. He really made the simcha. The guests are still talking about the beautiful dancing.) If you can’t recognize Yosis Alayich there’s something wrong with the band.
Bands have become arrogant. They don’t listen to requests to tone it down even if they come from the baalei simcha. If the person signing the check tells you to lower the volume or not to play certain songs, you had better listen. (My friend, among others, chewed out the band at her son’s chasuna for not listening and ruining the simcha by turning it into a disco.)
A true Yiddishe simcha is one in which everyone enjoys being misameach the chosson and kalla. It is not a time for ad d’lo yada; carrying on; or, forgetting how to behave properly.
find out , what weddings look like in the old days
I could not agree with you more! Yasher Koyach for posting this. I hope it spreads awareness to those that read it. In today’s society so many things that used to be inappropriate and unheard of have become common and “normal”. Its truly saddening and I can’t imagine how Hash-m tolerates it.
At my own chasuna, I had bachurim coming up to me and wishing me mazel tov!! Since when is this normal? Yes, I understand that the bochurim have a mitzva to be misameach chosson and kallah but to personally approach the kallah?! I believe that is a bit much and it made me feel extremely uncomfortable. Just imagine if it were reversed – if my friends were wishing my chosson mazal tov!! Hash-m should help that it doesn’t get to that point (which based on your chasuna experience, it seems highly likely that this already happens)
IYH Moshiach should come QUICK and the beauty of marriage and chasunas will be restored to Klal Yisroel.
just as an aside Reb yaakov yosef would go with signs against men and women dancing together. Considerably more problematic than men watching women dancing.
if the bands don’t listen to us to tone it down, we should blacklist them, and hit them in the only place they will pay attention..their wallets!
Reply to Chaim #29. Even though one should answer al harishon rishon etc., I’d like to answer your second question first. As to cold hard stares not being the “Jewish way”. Hu? Tell me if a fellow you knew that had full control of his mental capacity would wander into the ladies dressing room, would it be appropriate for them to look at him as if he was nuts “with a cold hard stare”. The man is a pervert. Sorry to disappoint you, but as per halacha, the movements made on the other side of the mechitza while kosher in a women’s only setting are absolutely akin to gilluy arayos in a mans eye, similar to my example above. I really didn’t think i needed to explain it to you. As to your first question I can back up my “Baloney” statement. See Shalos U Tshovous Ohr Yitzchak Chelek 2 Inyanim Shonim siman 10 where this exact point is addressed, maybe not with my choice of words of course.
Chaim, as you may be married, may I ask you how many times you have watched the video of the ladies dancing. I hope the answer is never, and I hope its not even on the same cd, so that when family gets together to watch the chasuna, the men don’t have to constantly get up and leave the room. Or do they just “grin and bear it”. Indeed.
hands down the most disturbing aspect of todays weddings is the kallah’s friends shrieking in that most hideous, unrefined and unladylike way.
and I am not a frummak.