Now that the annual “selection” of young Jewish girls in Lakewood has ended, we all need to consider some thoughts. What lessons are not learned every year as history continuously repeats itself, damaging the self-esteem of these fragile souls? It would seem the many professionals and holy experts could convene during the year to study, postulate, and basically come to a workable solution to this horror. Does the klal actually realize the depth of pain suffered by these girls and their families? To step outside of our community and attempt to explain why a Jewish girl must fight,
lobby and beg to be allowed to be educated within her own community is beyond comprehension.
They (the girls) are born in Lakewood and grew up in Lakewood. When confronted with the reality that they are not accepted into school, they ask the same question “What’s wrong with me?” “What did I do wrong?”
The answers they and their parents are given often sound like a witch hunt has been going on. Their mother’s skirts are too short. Their father doesn’t wear a white shirt, etc. Many girls are sent out of town. Would you send your fourteen-year-old daughter away to live with strangers?
Sadly, this often becomes a self-fufilling prophecy. If you treat someone like unwanted garbage, they become garbage. If some of these girls have issues, why are we not embracing them, holding them dear to our hearts so they don’t drift away searching for acceptance in all the wrong places?.
There are many wonderful devoted people who have championed their cause. These people are definitely doing the work of saving lives.
But what about the rest of us? Can we stand before the Heavenly Court this year with innocent hearts, asking ourselves – did we do enough, could we have done more? These are the thoughts that have to be considered.
Sincerely,
Anonymous
Let us all take a step back and examine why this problem is still here. The schools make their requirements based on skirts and shorts, true. However most school administrators are guilty of the same thing. The reason they made these standards are not because they asked dass torah or have such kaanaus burning within them. They make these standards so that the other parents in the school will not rise up and revolt. They do not want their school to become the second class school and have someone else open up the exclusive school. The real blame is to be placed on the parents who did actually get their kids into school and then have a cavaliar attitude to all those who didn’t. The problem is in the community as a whole not the administrators. If some guy comes along and opens a “frum” school, we should boycott it! The only way someone can do that is if he promises to never collect money form the public. If you are ready to make a mosad for the klal then the klal has to support it but if you make a mosad for your ego then your ego should support it
Yes how will they be able to stand there they killed me and my family I will admit that sometimes my skirts are to short but I am going up in life and come from a different backround then all the lkwd people
More Schoools . More Schools , More Schools More Schools
As long as their is a shortage of space ,there will always be those that are left out . If there would be Girls high schools opened in the same fashion as Boys Mesivtas ,then every girl ,no matter who she or her mother is ,would receive 20 phone calls ,begging her to join some schools . As long as opening Boys schools is considered Harbotzas Torah and opening Girls Schools is considered a Bizayon ,this will never stop .
I guarantee you that if there were another 2 schools opened every year ,like the Boys Mesivtas ,this would never happen .
Whichever Vaad or agency or Community board that is supposed to make the schools is at fault . It is not the fault of the schools that are all packed like sardines .
What happened to Chanoch Lanaar Al Pi Darko ? In NY as girl who weras short skirts or similar issues ,does not try to get ito the more farfrimte schools . Her mother knows that it is not good for her because she will feel too restricted and might rebel . She will go to one of the more libera;l high schools where she can feel good about herself and maybe even shteig ,over time . 9 out of 10 times ,if you put such a girl in a very closed restricyive ,very frum school ,it will be no good for her and no good for the rest of the class .
The problem is that Lakewood ,being a very Yeshivishe town , at least until the last few years ,does not have the same type of more liberal schools that are needed fpr these types of girls to thrive . When thrown into schools that are really too restrictive for them ,these girls have generally no done well . TRhey need to be placed in a school where they have space ,At this point there really are no such schools for them in Lakewood .
Either create such types of schools ,or face the facts that some girls will need to go out of town . It is not fair to an existing school that was created with a certain mission ,to have to be forced to change their type of chinuch to be able to accomodate girls that really need a different level of chinuch .
There is no “one size fits all ” solution in todays generation ,that is filled with so many nisyonos in the street .
Different flavors of Chinuch are needed for different types of girls . They are available in NY They are not yet available in Lakewood .
The schools aren’t always to be blaimed. I know of a lakewood family who baredt every school in town bec noone wanted their daughter. when the mashgiach (or rosh hayeshivos, I don’t remember who) went to bat for them one mossad said ‘we told them she is accepted on one condition though…get rid of your dog’. this part of the story the parents left out when bashing the schools. oy, ich hob nisht koiach . we need moshiach now
Yiu are right
Lakewood is growing so fast ,that the Chinuch institutions ,especisally the Girls High Schools were designed for the 80’s Lakewood crowd .
There has not yet been a high school designed for the more open minded girls that are becoming more prevalent in Lakewood today . In Ny there are many good frum schools that are not Yeshivish where a girl can watch videos ,talk casually to boys ,dress modern and still fell good about herself .
This doesnt exist in Lakewood . The growth and change is happening so fast that the type of school needed hasnt yet had a chance to be opened .
I dont understand what opening a Frum school has to do with somebody’s Ego . Are you saying that when Satmar or Pupa opens a school to indoctrinate their students with Chasidishe Hashkofas , it is for their Ego ?
A yeshivishe Frum school is no different than Satma ror Pupa ,with a different flavor . It has nothing to do with Ego and everything to do with a group of parentsd right to educate their kids in a Seviva that is compatible with their lifestyle . They are certainly entitled not to expose their kids to lifestyles that are not to their liking ,whther it is movies ,tv ,videos ,boys ,modern dress ( even if technically tznius ) etc etc
Please back up your facts . You state that ” many have been sent out o town ” I think it is reasonable that “many ” would seem to mean at least close to 5 to10 per cent . With about 450 or 500 girls going into high school ,do you have any figures to back up that somewhere between 25 to 50 girls were sent out of town ? And if the figures are really closer to beween 5 and 10 girls ,is it that shocking that between 1 and 2 per cent of the population needs a specialized Chinuch that is not available in the small handful of schools in a relatively young and new community like Lakewood ?
Why are you looking at the negative . Focus on the positive . In a town like Lakewood ,where there is such a shortage of school space , gorls were “selected ” ( to quote you ) by Schools that they didnt even apply to ,which were full and asked tp please enroll . That is a beautiful Chesed .
Mi Keamcha Yisroel .
Who Knows . In any other town with this type of growth and demographics and no organized community schools ,it would probably be much worse Only because Lakewood is an Ir shel Baalei Chesed ,did basically every girl get an invitation to attend a school .
I would like to say something that is not on this topic but its related. There are many individuals in this town who feel free to say whatever they want about other people. They say this without thinking that it may cause shalom bayis problems, problems with a shidduch, pain, etc. It has to come to a point where instead of working on not saying lashon hara and learning so much about shmiras halashon, we have to focus on saying only nice things about our fellow Yid. If you know something negative about someone, you may not say that information unless you are in a situation and all the 7 terms apply of when you may say it. It is very rarely when people are allowed to talk bad about some according to halacha. When will everyone in this town full of “tzadikim” learn how to think before they speak and if they have a serious question of when they may speak negative, ask you LOR (Local Orthodox Rabbi).
We have to believe in rabbonim and turn to them for guidance.
Plus, you never know what is going on in other people’s lives. Why would you want to cause another Yid pain? If we would only understand what people are going thru so we shouldnt say stupid things to or about them. Good words build good worlds. Bad, mean words build bad, mean worlds. Which are you aiming for?????
Chanoch Lanaar Al Pi Darco, you hit the nail on the head. Without cursing everyone out, you pointed out the problem very clearly.And best of all, you showed understanding for girls who may be having issues at age 14, but can mature into very stable, frum women. It happens all time. Age fourteen is not a time to judge someone!
To the other poster, who said people don’t open girls’ schools because they think it’s a Bizayon, it may be also because of all the horrible politics involved in girls’ schools.
Chanoch Lanaar is right on all his points . I am aware of girls that went off the derech who were forced to go to schools that were too frum and restrictive for them . I am also aware of similar situations where the gorl was sent out of town to a small more tlerant ,liberal school and she turned out very nicely .
It is not the responsibility of the existing schools in Lakewood ,to be able to accommodate every single diverse type of Chinuch need . There are going to be a percentage of girls every year ,that need a more relaxed type of Chinuch than what is available in the Lakewood schools that at this point are all restrictrive ,very yeshivish .etc . Forcing these girls into a school totally at odds with their meeds ,will doom these girls and probably also take a lot of other girls down with them .
Eventually Lakewood will have a diverse selection of girsl high schools similar to NY ,but until that happens ,then we have to be paractical and find the right place for everybody ,even if it means sending a handful or 2 ou of town every tear .
Lets think for a moment . For all practical purposes .Lakewood only has one girls High school . True there are 4 or 5 ,but they were all founded by the typical Lakewood Yeshivaman of 20 to 30 yearts ago .They all have basically the same real yeshiveshe hashkofas . So practically speaking we have One high scholl in 4 or 5 different buildings .
How in the world do you expect 450 giirls this year ( I hear it is going to be over 1,000 eighth graders in 5 or 6 years Bli a”h ) to fit into this one school ? Im not talking physically . I mean Chinuch wise .
Nobody in his right mind can expect 1,000 girls to be able to fit into one type of school without there being at least 5 to 10 per cent of exceptions .
ich hub nisht koiach:
You mentioned a school that would not accept a student whose family owned a dog. I understand why a school would be concerned about what type of internet access the family has, but why would the fact that the family owns a dog disqualify her? Probably this question seems naive, & clearly marks me as an out-of-towner, but I really don’t understand.
All this ranting and raving, year after year. I, like just about anyone else, think the situation is horrible. However, all I read and hear is abstracts. The community, the schools etc. How about someone standing up and doing something?
There is no end in sight. As this community continues to have a population explosion, more schools will open and more girls will be left out. If someone wants to change things, he must overhaul the whole system. Even if that miracously happens, what is the new order? No one will agree to someone else.
Parents are entrusted with the proper chinuch of their children. No Rav will unilaterally tell a parent where he/she should send his/her daughter. If the parents choose a school that is hard to get into, they are perceived as doing the right thing. How can you change that?
In conclusion, this debate will not end anytime soon. I do not believe action is possible in any way. I expect to continue reading posts like this one and read comments similar to the ones on this thread. I will feel bad for the people dealing with these issues and know that life goes on.
Mr. Curious, when a family has a dog in a town like Lakewood where just about no frum families have dogs, it shows how different & non conforming these ppl MAY be. Yes, there might exceptions to this but it is a concern for a school. In the case of this family it is very true. They don’t conform to many things in schools/shul & town. Having a dog is just the tip of the iceberg. I hope you understand it a little better now.
Every community has cerain sociallly accepted standars . These standards have nothing to do with right or wrong ,or good or bad and are not halocho related issues . In modern orthodox circles it is probbly not socially acceptable to come to school in green polka doted pajam bottoms . Now if somebody is a big tzadik and davens and learns all day ,but the family walks around in green polka dotted pajamas on the street ,then they might find it difficult to get their child into a school. They are not doing any aveiroh or anything wrong ,but it is not socially accetable .
Lakewood might be more extreme ,but in yeshivishe circles ,itis not socially acceptable to have a dog . It does not in any way make such a person bad . It just states that he does not want to conform to the social norms of his community and therefore will be an outcast and will not fit in to the school ,in a similar fashion as the guy with the pajamas in the street .
I agree that it is an extreme example ,but I wanted to gert the point across .
Where did you get this notion that by applying to hard to get into school you area perceived as doing the bright thing . That is incorrect . If your daughter will not do well in that school ,then you are certainly perceived ( at least by mosdt rational people ) as being delusional . There is nothing wrong in applying to a hard to get into schoo; as long as you also apply to several other schools and taske whatever ascceptance yopu get with your head held high .
As for a solution ,If we create 110 seats for every 100 new kids in the system .then the problem will disappear . If we keep creating 90 seats for every 100 new kids then you will keep reading these comments .
Thje laws of supply and demand are pretty universal and work here too . The most picky yeshivos in NY are definitely relaxing their admission standards ,now that their enrollments are falling drastically due to everybody moving to Lzakewood .
Schools can not be blamed for being picky if they have 3 applicants for every available seat. Balance the supply with the demand and the pickinress swill decrease to a manageable level
I am pretty amazed. This is the first time that I am reading a whole bunch of well though out and very articulate and sensible comments to a very important issue .
Lets deal with Facts . It is a known fact that there are no such recent problems with high school boys ,EVEN those who out of Town IS NOT an option . The reason : There are way too many mesivtas and even the weakest problematic boy has somebody who wants him . So bottom line iof there are enough schools ,the problem disappears .
So the debate really needs to focus on why there are not enough Girls high schools and why more people arent making them ,the same way they are making boys schools . If the community gave funding incentives to people to make girls schools then the problem goes away fast .
A friend of mine’s daughter wasn’t accepted into any schools a few years ago. She is from a very frum home, tsnius is not an issue. She ended up having to go out of town. It is very expensive for the family to have to keep sending their daughter back and forth, and the girl is also rather shy. I think it was very unfair to do this to her. She is a very aidel maidel.
There are three aspects to this whole issue: the problem, the cracks, and the egos.
The first aspects is the actual problem. This includes growing population, lack of schools, lack of space, differing values, etc., etc. I’m sure the educated readers can add to the list.
The solution for this lies with the very smart and dedicated people that will rise to the occasion and solve it.
The second aspect is the cracks. Some people who have no issues unfortunately end up getting caught up in the whole mess. The solution for this lies with the dedicated people who lead the organised effort of bringing everyone togther. Baruch HaShem, we have seen unity in our midsts to care for the yochid that somehow falls through the cracks.
The third aspect is the egos. Unfortunately, there is too much elitism in our midst, both of certain (or most) schools and of their parent body.
This is both the easiest and hardest to solve. Words cannot describe the wonders and benefits of humility. Yet, the yetzer hara is all too strong injecting his ga’avah, over inflating us until we chas vesholom fall flat.
Be very careful of whom you DON’T associate with. Before Yom Kippur, we need to make a cheshbon hanefesh of our own faults and realize that we are whom we shun. If not for chasdei HaShem….
My personal experience has shown that the elitism is not at the school level .IN deciding where to send their daughter ,Family members of mine had discussions with administrations of various schools ,including some that would be considered very hard to get into . They all said that they did not consider their school any better than any other . They offered the fact that their ratio of weak to excellent students was probably the same as everybody elses ,that they got their enrollment from the same elementary schools as everybody else ,that they had a similar curiculum as most other schools in town ,that they shared many teachers and had similar hashkofas and guidelines .
They openly stated that they would be pained if anybody tried to paint them as more exclusive as others ,but admitted that other than taking out full page ads in the paper saying bad things about their school,there was not much they could do to stop any silly parents from saying anything they wanted to .
True ,there is no shortage of young and immature parents ,who get a high out of feeling thast their school is better or more exclusive ,but my experience has shown that the dedicated principals and mechanchos and administrators ,are too mature and busy with educating the kids ,to be involved in this type of nonsense .
It is easy to bash people and criticize ,but at the end of the day it is these selfless indiv iduals who are stepping up to the challenge to educate our youth ,without a lot of Kovod or fanfare ,while everybody just sits back and slings mud in their direction
Curious, what don’t you get? if in your derfel everyone wears regular yarmulkas & regular long pants and one family wears yarmulkas with pam pams & short army pants, eventhough al pi halacha there is nothing wrong they still may have a hard time getting into regular schools bec they are not conforming to their makom. Same with having a dog in Lakewood- IT IS NOT THE NORM & its unconforming which is why mosdos may hesitate taking them in.
I am amazed that we have these comments from the “experts” and not ONE of you have taken your own suggestion and opened a school. Take it from me, to open a school in Lakewood takes guts, patience, and an ironclad marraige. It becomes your life. (and I mean that in not such a good way)
Its all nice and rosey before you open. With alot of encouragement and support. But the minute you are open its only complaints, and NOT ONE Drop of support anywhere to be found.
So, Big talkers, Emor Miat V’asei Harbei.
PUT YOUR NAME,LIFE, AND EVERY PENNY YOU HAVE HAD AND WILL EVER HAVE, WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS.
Thank you to all the school owners for stepping to the plate, and doing. We know that all you get is grief, but there are those of us out there that really respect you.
G’mar Chasima Tova
One of my distant relatives opened a school in Lakewood . As you say .he is married to the school 24-7 every day of the year . every penny he ever had plus a lot of loans personally signed for are in the school . The grief he gets an the names he has been called can make your hair stand up . Oh yes . I think he did once get a thank you from a parent he met on the street .
But he does shep nachas from the many yidishe kinderlach that have gotten an education because of him . Maybe after 120 he will get some respect becaus he sure aint getting any here . He honestly could not in good conscience advise somebody to follow in his footsteps and do the same because he is not sure that somebody els could withstand the financial stress and general grief thast he goesthrough constantly
To Not elite.
I hope you are right. On the one hand, much of what you say is true. But why is it that higher class types of families seem to be getting in to and going to certain sought after schools.
Secondly, this creates great pressure on the other schools and their parent bodies to promote themselves upward, sometimes in subtle ways, sometimes with hype, but people end up getting hurt.
Other than a group of immature people that directly want to be elite, much of the problem is subtle in nature, because one thing causes another, causes another.
It will and does take a big effort to work against forces of elitism. It will take a heroic effort on the part of some special individuals to stand up clearly and directly against the tide of elitism, but this sorely needs to be done.
The machlokesin that have plagued Lakewood will finally go away once humility is the order of the day.
I am not sure what you mean by “higher class type of families ” . Lets be frank . There are certain last names that any school has no choice and will have to take . We all know who they are . So if those names apply to a certain school there is nothing the school can do but accept them
.A few kids will get in to any school because of money . Some schools more and some schools much less but unfortunately our schools are extremely strapped for money just to simply pay the teachers and staff ,so you really cant blame anybody for taking at least a few rich kids every year . Its an unfortunate fact of life in order to barely survive .
If by higher class you mean Choshuveh families with well behaved ,Torahdige kids ,who are tops in Midos and academics ,then its also not a surprise . Lets be honest ,if a school has 3 applicants for every available seat it is going to take the kids that are considered the best . Schools are humans ,not Malochim . I havent yet seen one school anywhere in the world that will turn away the best kids just to be able to take more problematic kids . There are many schools that want to take all weaker kids leshem shomayim ,but of course they are not going to turn away the best just to do that .
If you mean that some schools might give preference to children of Klei Kodesh or Talmidei chachomim ,that is also not so terrible as they may have the right to feel that these families are owed some hakoras hatov for their work for the klal or their mesirus nefesh for Torah .
Again .no school is only taking Kleri Kodesh etc ,but if there is only 1 seat left in a full class ,they might give it to a Klei Kodesh ,all other things being equal . Im not really sure there is something inherently wrong with that ,as in any case they only have the one seat .
At the end of the day ,every school without exception has a large percentage of just regular everyday type of kids from nice simple working families and you can look at their enrollment lists and you will see that it is true .
Obviously if for whatever reason a school is more sought after ,then it might get more applicants and have a bigger selection and may end up with a couple of percentage points more of “better ” kids ,but on the whole after accounting for siblings etc . there is really not that much difference and all the schools will openly tell you that .
If there were only 1 applicatn per seat instead of 3 and we had a little more supply than demand ,then even these small subtle issues would disappear . I dont believe there are any schools in Lakewood that would keep seats empty just to stay exclusive . That is ridiculous . But if they are overfull anyway ,you cant blame anybody for selec ting those that might be a better fit .because at the end of the day whoever they take ,means some other kids are going to get rejected for lack of space .so whats the difference who they take as long as they service the tzibur by filling up their classes .
Bottom line more schools less problems .less schools more problems is a simple equation ..
Bottom line nobody is perfect and Im sure schools can do better like asny of us can ,but to make them the villians when in reality they are sacrifing for all of us is really out of line .
I had the same question about the family with a dog. To all those who answered that a family with a dog in Lakewood is a non-conforming family, I never realized that it was socially unacceptable (i.e. non-conforming) to have a dog in Lakewood. I just assumed that most families in Lakewood do not own a dog for various other reasons that make it difficult for most Lakewood families – e.g. the expense, time and effort in care of the animal, inconvenience, and possibly shailos about caring for the dog on Shabbos. Personally, I am not an animal lover (and I’ll admit that I’m scared of dogs), but I don’t see anything wrong with a frum family in Lakewood owning a dog if it works for them. I would not have any problem with a child of mine having a classmate who owns a dog (if that is really the only issue and was not used as an excuse becuase of other issues) – and I do consider myself a Lakewood conformist and proud of it!
Let’s be honest. Take a hypothetical case. 2 fine individuals make a talmud torah elementary school. One of them is more capable or a harder worker or both , and works hard and hires a super menahel who in turn hires extremely capable rebeim. The administrator works hard himself and the school is very clean mesudar and well run. The children are very happy and generally excel.
The other school is also good but not as mesudar and the Rebeim are fine but more mediocre. Kids do ok but do not excel as much as school A.
Would all the ” elite ” bashers honestly say that they would not at least attempt to enroll their child in school A if they had the opportunity ?
If we had only one community school funded by our taxes then everybody would be equal.
But in a system where we abdicate our communal responsibility to private individuals who essentially volunteer to help us out then you can’t begrudge anybody for working harder and creating School A which in turn creates more demand for the excellence it then becomes known for.
No reasonable person will tell anybody that he can’t work hard to try to create an excellent school. You also can’t tell parents no to want that excellence for their child.
YeS it creates problems for the other schools. If those others do not get better they will get less applicants. But in a system of private individuals making schools there is no way around this.
The only way out is one communal school with mandatory attendance for everybody ,chasidish litvish etc. There would be no incentive to excel but there would be no competition among the parents eitther. Take your choice.
Thanks to those who answered my question about owning a dog. I did not realize that Lakewood is so monolithic that someone who does not conform to everyone else in the community, even in matters not halachically related, is automatically suspect.
In anwer to the question addressed to me, in my fine, frum community, we do not all dress identically, drive identical vehicles, have identical jobs, etc. Some of my children’s friends own pets, including cats & dogs. Personally, I don’t own a cat or dog (though my oldest son would like a cat, and we do have fish), because I don’t especially like them & b”h am too busy for that responsibility.
I appreciate the insight into your community.
There is a simple solution to this problem. There will be no space issues and all the askanim can go find a new cause. The only problem will be that some of the newer schools will need to search for girls to attend. I just hope they don’t take us to a din torah. Details coming soon. Oh and I know of a family that has a daughter and a large dog and she got in to bby no problem(the daughter not the dog)so you see some menahalim are willing to embrace all types of girls.
To “Be Honest”:
Having a menahel work hard and make a great school is not the problem. But I heard that in actuality, schools with a supposed great name are not necessarily always better than the so called common schools. Some parents and students are so caught up with brand names, but then realize that each school has their own mailos and chesronos.
By higher class type of people, I meant the first two, names and money.
I do not villinize the schools. They put their life into it and deserve much credit.
But there are problems. One aspect of the problem is elitism.
Sometimes it’s overt, sometimes it’s subtle, sometimes it’s natural, sometimes it’s real, sometimes it’s hype.
It is very easy to shift the issue, because of all the natural and subtle causes one can hide behind.
What’s needed, though, is to not hide behind all the easy excuses (which many of which are legitimate), but to clearly and directly stand in the other direction.
We are a nation of lifnim meshuras hadin. Even legitimate excuses do not solve problems.
Everybody will encourage you to make a new school . Nobody can or will take you to a Din torah . Kinas Sofrim tarbe Chochma . Believe me .many of the existing schools are so full ,they would be more than delighted for you to open up and take everybody and relieve some of the space presuure .
I only hope you are for real ,not blowing hot air
Of course nobody said that any particular school school is always better for every child . But it is unfair to assume that the majority of parents are just total fools and want to send to a mediocre school just for supposed name . Most likely there is probably some reason why any particular school is more sought after ,year after year ,akin to something like the example in School A . The biggest proof is ,that in many cases ,when there are changes in the school staff or key teachers leave and parents realize that the level of chinuch has degraded ,all of a sudden the school can lose its luster and is not so in demand anymore .
While I agree that many parents just follow with a herd mentality ,rather than really bering concerned about specific chinuch issues , the initial reason for the demand is the perception at least that the administration and staff excel more in some way for the benefit of the student and the parents want to be part of that for their children .
Saying that all parents just send to a school that has no educational superiority ,just for some name ,is really considering parents to be absolutely moronic . You have to give them a little more credit than that .
Again I admit that competition and educational superirity have drawbacks and we all know them .
The Communists felt the same way . They did not want anybody to be superior and all families should be equal in wealth and status etc . In theory it was a good idea . In practice it doesnt work . When there is no incentive to excel ,everything eventually falls apart .
Capitalism allows groth and competition fosters excellence . We all know that capitalism has its Korbonos and negative aspects ,but the alternative is probably worse .
Like I said ,the only alternative is to take away any competition and choice and fund a community school that everybody must attend and not allow any private schools . Then there can be no superior school and therefore no elitism with people trying to get into the better school ,because there simply wont be any better one .
Parent ;
I am a little surprised at your thinking . I am familiar with many of the schools in Town and yes ,there are obviously some that are run better than others . In some cases the Menahel or Menaheles is simply more capable ,in others they had the mazel or siyata dishmaya of finding a star principal which in turn guides the Rebeim or Moros better than in other Mosdos . In some the Teachers are of a higher caliber etc etc . Funding may play a role as a higher pay scale can attract better teachers .
Every school in town is really doing a great job ,but like anything else there are those that shine in certain areas . Of course just because a school has better teachers or is better in general .does not make it better for YOUR child . Every parent needs to know their child and know what is best for him or her . But there are obvious differences in certain schools where the excellence in various areas shines through and it is not shocking that parents will go out of their way to try to avail themselves of that excellence .
To vilify schools for causing elitism ,when all they are doing is trying their best to create an excellent school with high caliber staff and curriculum ,is really unfair and disengenuous .
Just wanted to add that 6:48 is not all my own thinking. and I may or may not have been wrong. But a principal at an interview for my child actually said that such and such brand name school is not necesarily better, they just have better PR. I also heard of parents who have regretted sending
Of Course there will always be parents that rerget sending to any school . Children are not pieces of merchandise and each child needs his own style of Chinuch . The best school may not be compatible with some children ,while they may end up shining in a smaler more mediocre school .
That does not take away from the fact that like any thing out there in the world ,there are better schools and more mediocre schools .
As far as PR operations , I have sent several children to various schools in Lakewood and I have never encountered any PR whatsoever emanating from the school . There may be some immature parents ,who may feel the desire to cheer for their school ,but I have never heard any of the schools I was involved with say anything that would promote themselves in any way to the detriment of others .
Different schools may have different policies and standards and higher levels of learning ,but this is to be expected as diversity is very important
It was always , ” we try our best to give your child a true yidishe education and its up to you to research and decide if we are the right school for you ” . This was the tone I heard both in public and in private from several schools and was also the tone set at school open houses that my wife attended . .This includes some schools that people would probably rate as very hard to get into .
My experience has shown that it is generally people who could not get into a particular school because of space or other reasons ,that become bitter and start this talk of elitism . Belive me I have seen this first hand that the same elite bashers ,if the somehow manage to get into the “elite :” school ,suddenly turn around and start heaping praise on the great phenomenal school that their child was Zoche to get into .
If people were more mature and accepted the fact the your rejection has more to do with space restrictions than tou personally ,they would not need to get bitter and most of this school bashing would stop .
What about the girls whose fathers DO wear white shirts & whose mothers are perfectly tznius? Many of these fine girls with sterling middos were treated like garbage also. Don’t read this & think that it can’t happen to YOU. It happened to some of the oldest & finest families in Lakewood. The askonim will tell you that all of these girls got into a school at THE END. They literally got in at THE END, scrambling the day before school to buy uniforms, books, school supplies, etc. Shame on this town for allowing girls to be used as pawns in a power game. Hint to “mechanchim”: when we say “maavir tzono tachas shivto” we are talking about Hashem, not YOU.
Thank you for using the word “selection,” as your Holocaust metaphor is very appropriate. After being treated like a piece of garbage the entire summer for the crime of trying to get my daughter into high school, I was told that I should now have Mechila in my heart on Erev Yom Kippur. I cannot forgive those who do not ask for Mechila, and who plan to continue their criminal behavior next year.
From what I heard ,the vast majority of the girls that were placed at the end did not apply to the newer schools that were known to have more room . When therre is such an extreme shortage of space ,you better make sure to apply to anybody and everybody and if you take your chance and only apply to 1 or 2 places or even 3 ,then dont blame anybody when they have no place and the others dont want somebody who treated their school like garbage and didnt even take out the effort to fill out an application .
Yes Im sure there were a handful of exceptions to this rule ,but there will always be a few who cant get in till the end in a town where there are 17 or 18 elementary school classes trying to squeeze into 10 or 12 high school classes . It sounds like a real miracle that it actually happened .
Wow . If anybody wants to know why we have a shortage of High Schools ,these last few posts are the reason . Why would I be crazy enough to even think about making a new school when I know that next year after taking more kids than I should ,I will be called a ” Criminal ”
If I am going to be called a Criminal I at least want to make some money . But to lose money and sleep and be called a Criminal ,you have to be certified Insane to want to do that .
to 10:34 no hot air here. we will iy”h be working with the largest girls elementary school to establish a high school that will accept all girls from that school.that in turn will free up space for all the other schools to play their little acceptance games with less “korbanos”.we are currently establishing a board of directors and finding a suitable building.imagine a girl graduating eighth grade and knowing what school she is going to.or a parent not needing to lose sleep every night of the summer worrying that school will start without their daughter(what a strange concept).each and every girl will be told they are accepted and must give a final answer within 2 weeks whether they will attend the high school .they will be told that if they wish to try to get in elsewhere there may not be place for them later.this will force all schools to accept their applicants in a timely manner.no askanim will be needed.and no tears will need to be shed either
First We will believe it when we see it .
Second . You are also starting to play your little games . You will only be guaranteeing acceptance to those ids coming from a large Elermetary school . What about those kids that couldnt get into that elementary school or just didnt go there 8 years ago ? Are they chopped meat in your eyes ? They wil hasve to still go through the process as usual . If that is really your intention then you are just the same as anybody else . Until you announce that it is your intention to take anybody that wants to come from ANY elementary school , you are just trying to dupe everybody into thinking you are a tzadik .
If you have adog you can’t get into school?are they afraid of getting fleas?or perhaps the dog may follow the girl ot school. I found the experience of owning a dog has taught me respomsibility ,trust and friendship. Things you people seem to lack.
to anonymous 10:08 pm, I will address the untruths in your comment:
“From what I heard ,the vast majority of the girls that were placed at the end did not apply to the newer schools that were known to have more room”:
The vast majority of girls who did not get in until the very end followed the procedures correctly. They applied to 3 schools, at least one of which was a new school. This includes paying an application fee & taking a 3 hour test & an interview for each school. This took place in February. In June, the acceptance letters went out. Those who did not get accepted to any school received no “rejection” or “waiting list” letter & no communication from any vaad to say that they are working on the problem. The parents then called the schools to which they applied, including these newer schools, and were told that there was no room, goodbye.
“dont blame anybody when they have no place and the others dont want somebody who treated their school like garbage”:
The fact is that they actually want the families that treat their school like garbage. They hold spaces until the last day for girls who prefer to be in another school but didn’t get in there yet & for girls whose parents call daily for the acceptance list to make sure that they approve of every girl going to school with their precious daughter.
“Yes Im sure there were a handful of exceptions to this rule ,but there will always be a few who cant get in till the end in a town where there are 17 or 18 elementary school classes trying to squeeze into 10 or 12 high school classes . It sounds like a real miracle that it actually happened”:
It did not actually happen. Several girls got in nowhere & were sent out of town. Several families were sick of waiting for an answer which may or may not come from a local school, and chose to go elsewhere. You have to understand that their was little or no communication between the vaad/schools and these waiting parents. When people are left in the dark, they make other plans. If so many girls have to be squeezed into so few spaces, why wait until September to figure out the jigaw puzzle? And why not have an ounce of sympathy for a 14 yr old girl who has no school? The situation absolutely does not have to be handled this way, with no mentschlachkeit, no rechmanus.
Over 1 million Jewish children went to the gas chambers. Frum & frei, rich & poor, together. There was no shortage of space, no waiting list, no elitism. Whole families, whole communties were wiped out in a single day. Lakewood, please get your act together & treat each Jewish child as a precious gift that can be taken away at any moment. History is not on your side.
To the last 2 posters .
Now you and I both know that come this year there will again be 18 or 20 elementary school classes fighting to squeeze into 10 to 12 High schooll classes . It is now October . What are you doing about it ? There is No Vaad that makes schools .
I and others have tried to convene meetings to convince people to make new schools . The answer we get is that why should anybody make a new school and become a shnorrer for the rest of his life ,only to see himself compared to the Nazis by people like you .
So when you want to know why people arent making new schools ,it is because of bloggers like you . Do something positive . There is a new class being bern every WEEK here in Lakewood .
In 5 years we will probably have 1000 girls competing for 500 slots in 9th grade . So what are you doing about it ? Comparing people to the Nazis so you can be sure nobody will step up to volunteer to try to help solve the problem . It is people like you that cause our problems . If you would appreciate those few people that actually do something and not just call them names maybe more people would follow in their footsteps and also do for us .
Nobody said you have to be happy that you had to wait till the end . But just because we are growing way too fast for the system to help you ,doesnt give you the right to call people names and give them all the reason not to want to continue to help us all
To glad I didn’t make a school.
I am also glad you didn’t make a school. If you can’t figure out how automatically accepting every girl from the largest grade school in town will solve the problem regarding space for many years to come.how is that elitist? It is a practical and fair way of freeing up space for all other schools to enjoy the selection process each year without creating the stigma of aschool that takes just everybody. It is THE solution. It MUST get done and that bli. Neder is the last I will be writing on this subject. All those that wish to help please join us after succos. Announcements will go out officialy after succos once we get all the proper haskomos. Which according to all the menahalim on here should be no problem.
To the guy making the new school .
I dont understand .
The largest elementary school in town has also been “elitist ” ( according to your definition ) by not accepting many children over the last 8 years .
So you are saying that if somebody suffered 8 years ago and was not accepted into this school ,that you will now perpetuate their suffering by treating her as a second class citizen ? This child will have to once again fight her way into your school ,while the “elite ” child who was accepted 8 years ago ,gets a free pass and automatically gets an acceptance to your high school ? You are just adding insult to injury to those hundreds of kids who over the years cried and did not get accepted to the large elementary school just because they had no pull .
It is nice to make a school to free up space ,but PLEASE dont perpetuate the Elitism by giving preference to anybody just by virtue of their having had “protekzia ” in getting into an elementary school that many of us could not get into because we didnt have the right last name .
Anon 11:38
I and many others were not able to get our children accepted into the largest elementary school . I diod not have the necessary pull to make it .Now you are telling me that my daughter once again will be discriminated against by your school . Her friends with the pull and protekzia who did get in a few yeas ago ,will now sleep well knowing they have a guaranteed slot in your new high school . My daughter,who was already discriminated against in primary by not being given a chance to go to the large elementary school,will still have to cry and plead to be given a chance .Im sorry . If you dont understand that this is just another form of elitism ,then maybe you should think twice before making a school
Crying Parent :
You have a very legitimate complaint . I would assume that the only way to resolve this is for the large elementary school to now start accepting everybody at theprimary level . Maybe now that there has been a change of administration ,that will be the new policy .Therefore anybody that chooses to not go there in primary ,can not feel discriminated against if they dont automatically get accepted to their high school .If however they dont liberalize their primary acceptance policy by opening it up to everybody ,as befits a true community school ,then you are 100 % right ,the new high school will just be perpetuating the elitism ,albeit in a different packaging . Yotzo schoro behefsedo
While I dont claim to have the answer , I do not like hypocrisy . Eother you accept everybody or by nature you are elitist . Just because you decide to accept every girl from a particular feeder school ,does not make you non elitist . There are other high schools here who accept everybody from their feeder school ,but are just as elitist as everybody else ,because it is not easy to get into their elementary feeder school . So unless you have an open acceptance policy ,at least at the elementary school level ,then you are just one of the same who pick and choose who you want . I prefer a school that at least admits that they are selective ,to one that claims they are not ,but in reality is no different than the others . Its very simple . Either you are a community open school or you are elitist to some degree . You cant have it both ways . Take your pick .
to anonymous 11:20 a.m.:
The poster did not compare the schools to Nazis. He/she was saying that the abundance k”ah of Jewish children at this time should be taken in the context of Jewish history. It was not always so & will not necessarily always be so.
In order to begin solving the problem, start with telling the parents the honest truth at the outset. For example:
1) There is not room for everyone. We have a problem. Don’t sit back & expect the vaad to place you, because you might not be placed at all, or you might have to wait until less than 24 hrs. before school starts.
2) All the schools are not “the same”. Some will only take “aleph” students & all others need not apply.
3) Siblings are not necessarily automatically accepted, expecially if there is a large age difference, or they have an older sister who had problems in high school.
4) Certain elementary schools have more power to get their girls into high schools than others. Some elementary principals are privy to a list of who was accepted in advance, & some are not.
5) The acceptance letters will go out 4 months after the application process, but not all at the same time. One school will withhold their acceptance letters for an extra week, so that girls who really want to go to that school will be holding spaces in other schools until their acceptance comes through.
6) Not everyone will be accepted to a school. This means that some girls will get 2 or 3 acceptance letters, and some will get none. They will not hear from the schools or the vaad. They will assume that they are on their own. There will be no phone number to call & no one to contact. This is the point at which all parents & girls involved will start to feel victimized. The feeling of victimization will increase as parents try to call schools on their own, only to be told “don’t even bother,” “we’re full” etc.
8)Some will give up & send their daughter out of Lakewood. This is fascinating because we are sending our own out of the Bais Yaakov system, while collecting money for organizations to be mekarev children from outside the system. If the vaad & schools to not want to be thought of as evil, they should change these evil practices. It is “assur” on many levels – Geneiva (taking application fees without any intention of accepting the child), Rechilus, Geneivas Daas, Onaas Dvarim…
If you don’t like the nazi comparison, try this one:
12,000 pairs of talmidim of Rabi Akiva were surely “yeshivish”, wore white shirts (don’t think borselinos were invented yet), their wives were surely tznius. They all died at once “mipnei shelo nahagu kovod zeh lazeh”
Hey fellows. wake up and smell the coffee . Everybody starts off thinking they can fix the world . But as soon as they start their school ,they realize they have no choice but to be somewhat selective in some way . If you have open enrollment ,ypu will close down pretty fast . So at the end ,everybody becomes selective and gets called the nasty names by those that dont get accepted .
The only solution is for one community school with absolutely no option to be allowed to open or attend any other school . Thern the elitism is gone . But as long as there are going to be multiple private schools ,there will have to be selectivity ,because without it ,yiou will very soon become a school only for the bottom ,which can not stay afloat .
To anon 11:32
It sounds like you have been hurt and everybody feels for you .
But I think you might have been a little naive . It is obvious that the schools will only take how many they can fit in . So if we know that ithere is a shortage of space or at least that space is tight , It is quite obvious that you might not get into the schools of your choice ,or into any school for that matter . The school does not have to advertise the obvious fact that they will not take you if thery are full .
I happen to have relatives that attended most of the high schools and I have seen letters from some of them telling everybody including siblings that because of space constraints ,they could not guarantee anybody a place . From my knowledge of family members who attended different schools,every single school has aleph ,beis and gimmel students . The fact that some girls will get 2 or 3 letters and some none is just part of the space crisis . When faced with hundreds of applicants for 50 or 60 slots ,schools are going to choose who they want . This is an unfortunate fact of life and only an abundance of space will change this .There is no Vaad or anything that really has any power to do anything . There are a handful of well meaning ,hard working tireless Askonim who try their best to help you . But its naive to think they can do more than that . I dont really understand your other gripes or see what they have to do with the fact thast when space is tight ,or not enough ,somebody will always get left out .
This will keep happening until there are enough seats created every year for the additional hundreds that enter this growing system . I think most people realized it from the start . You sound you really believed there was some magical Vaad that would take care of everything ,and unfortunately it didnt happen .
I know for a fact that there have been several people scared away from creating schools ,because of all the name calling and bad feelings toward school owners . So im not sure your well intentioned words are really helping the real problem . We have a situation where we have a town that needs ,many more girls high schools ,but the population cant afford the 6000 or 7000 tuition that is needed to run them . So we expect people to make them ,collect their low tuitions and fund them privately and then their reward is that they get likened to the Nazis or have words like ” selection ” used about them or at least something like that . Its not a good recipe for inducement to find those needed to solve this problem . I know . I have tried to convince some people that I thought were capable ,to try and make a new school and the answer was , “:even If I was crazy and rich enough to do it ,my wife wont let me because she hears all the names the other guys are called ” So think before you talk . Your next daughter might not have a high school to attend in 5 years because of the comments you are making today .
If the problem persists into next year, the following idea may offer some hope.
There should be a place with great exposure (like TLS) where parents w/o schools can get together and hire the teachers needed for their daughters.
This class or classes can easily find a place of accomodation. Some generous people may even offer accomodations free of charge. The tuition will be low, because of the low overhead.
Eventually these classes will turn into a real school.
The reason why this will never happen is because parents believe they are automatically entitled to have somebody else make a school for their child and the most they have to do is pay some reduced amount of tuition to the guy who made it for them.
I think some parents feel entitled, but others (like myself) went along with the va’ad guidlines, and in the end it did work out. But the way it went about is flawed.
It therefore mostly depends on the expectations parents are led to have. If no other solution is brought about, and people are clearly told about this solution, I think it will work. It surely is not the best solution, but it may turn out to be the only one.
All it takes is a group of 15-20 children. 2 very good teachers can be hired, one for Torah and one for all the english subjects. I’m sure they can find a classroom free of charge, sice it would be a big zechus. I don’t see how it can cost more than 4,000 per student.
If an anonymous person asks mechila from all the anonymous people that did them any wrong ,does that mean that everyone has officially asked and been granted mechila? In that case. Please be moichel me bleiv shaleim and I in turn will be moichel you for any heartaches you may have caused any parents or menahalim. I only anonymously ask one favor. That we all be mekabel to change the way things are done this year so no one needs to suffer next year.