Dear TLS: I’d like to start off saying that I’m not just another complainer with nothing better to do with my time. I’m a businessman living here in Lakewood, but felt this issue should be addressed. I recently walked into a store (which store is not important) and was shocked what I was confronted with. The way the woman behind the counter was dressed made me think I walked into the wrong store. She belonged in a Manhattan store, perhaps, but definitely not in Lakewood.
How can a Frum person, who caters specifically to the Frum community have the nerve to place a woman so horribly dressed which would evidently be Machshil men and boys walking into the store? I usually trust my teenage children to shop on their own in the Frum stores, but this really made me rethink it.
Store-owners: There is nothing wrong with hiring a girl for your store, but should you choose to do so, please set rules in place prior to them welcoming your customers who wish to be sheltered from such influences.
Thank you,
A bothered parent.
(TLS welcomes your letters and opinions by submitting them to tlsnewstips@gmail.com).
I could not have agreed more- I walked into a store recently, where the women behind the counter looked like she belonged in hollywood- besides for the fact that she was completely dressed inappropriately , she was on her cell phone a whole time- texting away. I walked in stood at he cash, and tried getting her attention but obviously her cel phone was way to imp—
STOREOWNERS: it is extremely disgusting to walk into a store and see the above situation, I will have to think twice before I walk back into your store!!!!!!!
i dont see u complaining about shoprite, walmart or target
its hard to find your type of women to work in every store
Although there is a limit to what a store owner can impose on the employee, there is also a minimum that he can impose such as what shows. Perhaps storeowners should take a hint from the schools & impose a uniform.
Hey! How about the way the female teachers and assistants dress in a boy’s yeshiva? Anyone bothered by that? I work in a yeshiva that allows females to dress in a way that would have any girl’s school throw them out! There are rebbeim who eat their lunch in the lunchroom behind a mechitza. Insane.
well if u can’t figure out yet that he’s talking about frum girls and women then reread the article and even if he’s not he definitely is talking about frum stores where you expect better and think you should be able to shop without any issues. there are plenty of people who don’t walk into the stores you mentioned not only because of employees but also for the billboards and stuff. and by the way a store like target has a uniform so their employees are not coming in looking like some of ours do.
I think the problem is in your mind you make women into objects instead of just another human being. if you were healthy you would not be bothered by how another women is dressed, because even if the women was dressed to how you felt was appropriate, comes along another person who says the person thats not good! your not dressed appropriately. of course you’ll agree they women here dont have to dress like satmar women so where do you draw the line? the problem is not how women are dressed the problem is in the mind of the observer.
I HAVE DEAL GIRLS WORKING FOR ME IN A SETTING WHERE THEY INTERACT WITH FRUM MEN, AND I HAVE VERY STRICT DRESS CODES AND THEY HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT AND THEY RESPECT THAT.
maybe you guys are judging this woman incorrectly. maybe she doesn’t realize that she’s dressed way over the top. and maybe just maybe this is loshon hora. think before you speak.
It is difficult to determine from your letter what the real issue was. Was she wearing pants? Short sleeves? Gaudy jewelry? Too much make-up? Shorts and a halter top?
What are your minimum requirements for the salespeople/cashiers in the stores in which you shop?
Your vague references and accusations are meaningless. Unless you are specific, no one knows what you are really complaining about, so you do appear to be “just another complainer with nothing better to do with [your] time.”
Maybe I just don’t understand your code, however, I have shopped in “Manhattan” stores, and have seen many well dressed, tzniut employees as well as many not.
May I suggest that rather than sending a public note, that you address your concerns directly with the store owner? Or, vote with your feet – don’t shop there.
Additionally, by better defining your concerns, you may discover that while you may be put off, but most others are not. Perhaps it is your standards that are too high. With no real info in your letter, who can tell?
Would you be bothered if a saleswomen in a frum store wore a cross necklace?
I was abut the owner told me that he couldnt dio anything about it.
i happen to be a storeowner that employs a “modern girl” but for a reason .she is a girl who was rejected in our “infamous” school system and went totally off . she boruch Hashem is working her way back . i refuse to throw her back on the street, she has a purpose ! Yes her skirt might be a little short for now but i cant push it . i think and hope my schar will be greater then the ” judgemental people who want me to get rid of her. and if i lose businees so be it
Would you be bothered if a saleswomen in a frum store wore a cross necklace?
Not any more then I expect a Catholic to be bothered by his Jewish employee wearing a Yarmalka.
you hve a problem keep it to your self stop tryingh to fix the workd and budding into everyone elses buisness
Wow! This is really unbelievable. I thought we live in the United States of America. Does FREEDOM mean anything? Maybe this isn’t the place for you.
to # 10 Hamaivin Yuvin
I wonder if this employee is the same one who wrote once about being frum and yeshivish and EVEN works in our local store yet couldnt get her child into our schools.
“How can a Frum person, who caters specifically to the Frum community have the nerve to place a woman so horribly dressed which would evidently be Machshil men and boys walking into the store? I usually trust my teenage children to shop on their own in the Frum stores, but this really made me rethink it.”
I have a simple solution to your problem.
A: You can move to Iran where I promise this wont be a issue.
B: You can move to Meah Shearim where many people agree with YOUR standers of Tznis.
We live in The United States where everyon has the freedom to do as they wish if you wish to keep your children “safe” from these horrible things you have the above options.
#12:
Wow. I envy your schar. People, please take note of a Jew who cares more for his fellow Jew than money. Really nice to see!
Too all you critics, Here you have it look at post number 12 and maybe then you will start being dan lkaf zechus.
I am so sick of you kranke people who have nothing better to do then to look at what you could complain about.
My friend went to doctor shanik’s office with her sick child, she wore a long slinky skirt and there was a “FRUM” guy with hat and jacket that followed her out and went up to her car to tell her she is a shame to the community she should dress more tzenius.
You guys are sick, that all I have to say SICK.
I once (I say once because I never went back) went into a cafe (Cholov Yisroel) and the waitress was dressed so Pritzusdik (Manhattan style) that I called the Rav Hamachsir to complain. I didn’t get to far, so I decided that I’m not going back.
stop looking!!!!!
Do people have to write, call in, blog, email, and discuss every complaint and issue that they have with a business or organization? IF YOU DONT LIKE SOMETHING: DONT GO THERE!!!!! But to sit at home and write or call complaints in, and expect change because you demand it- is just selfish, self-centered & egotistical.
MY BUSINESS, MY EMPLOYEES, MY PROPERTY, MY RULES = DONT LIKE IT? (here is a tip you didn’t learn in life) SHOP ELSEWHERE!!
Bravo #19
Why did you look?
Don’t look, you seem to have no problem with internet.
Look at sefer Kav Hayoshor simon Nun Beis, he speaks about the frum peolpe like you.
i happen to work in a store and in lakewood and although i try my best to dress in atire that is lakewood apropriate, i have just recently started my journey back to religion. i come from a non religious backround, and left my very unsupportive family, who will most likely never speak to me again. i now live by my amazing cousins in lakewood that i have never met before in my life, and they have become my new family and are patiently teaching me about my religion. its been very hard for me to adjust to everything and my rabbi tells me to take it slow, so i am. i only have a few peices of modest clothing because i threw most of my wardrobe in the trash. i came from an extremely wealthy family and got everything i ever wanted, now i live in a basement with a family of eight children. i have no regrets and i have never felt more fullfilled, no monet in the worl can buy the feeling of being a part of a nation like the jews! every word that i learn with my tutors amazes me, and im trying so hard to keep everything that i learn, but it gets so confusing sometimes! I just wanted to explain myself and people like me, or maybe it was me that you saw in the store! Anyways, im sorry if it was me but im trying my best please just give everyone the benefit of the doubt because you never know where people are coming from.
Just for the record, there have been many people in lakewood that are soo nice and welcoming! Thank you so much!
There’s a much bigger problem brewing than meets the eye. Everytime someone like this writes in , they make a kinus and the people who aren’t the problem show up and over do it . We have a very serious problem among our teen girls. We have girls who are not being mechanech in the correct way . many of them don’t even understand the main purpose of being tznius is not to be machshil other men . They are NEVER told this in school. Usually its some angry woman with a ruler and warning notes home that measuring earings and hemlines . The girls see it more as a rule thing . That’s not tznius, tznius is realizing that you are a daughter of the king , that u are kodesh a tzelem elokim. these girls don’t realize they are kodesh and then they fall. We now have an epidemic on our hands. Anyone who’s willing to open their eyes can see that there is a downfall in tznius amonsgt our youth on the streets. I see regular yeshivishe Chosanim , and then the Kallah dressed like a (moderated) and she’s a local . Our Chinuch needs help. With our girls the focus has become way too textual . These girl don’t have a chiyuv to be Talmedai Chochomim and yet the ciriculum is designed as such . and now we are losing the battle . Yes Mr. Businessman it is a problem that this girl is not properly dressed, but the underlying problem isthat our system is really not working for everyone .and we are losing girls at an alarming pace . GEVALT! is anybody listening?
mind your own busines!!!!!!!! everyone has their own levels! i was in a store once where a “frum” guy came in and complained to a store owner that he had a sign on one of his products with a man and women sitting next to each other. if you r bothered by something in a place that isnt your own then dont go there! NO ONE ASKED YOU TO AND DEFINITLY NO ONE ASKED YOUR OPINION ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! complaining is not goin to change anything! and it doesnt make you any better thatn that person you r complainin about!!!!!!!!
# 7 comment right on the money not much more to be said ….this so called “bal habus “is a phony hes just using that term to hide his very corrupted insecure mind ….he most likely is a self hating depressed person who is bored with his life and has no hatzlocha in life ….ill bet anything on that ….. he needs to call “relief” to find a good doctor to help his diseased mind.
It is very sad and shameful to read the comments of ppl who are bashing the one who posted the “complaint”. It doesn’t seem like this person is trying to correct the world but we do live in a concentrated frum community and yes we do have to live up to certain standards. Our purpose on this world is to constantly strive to be better. Whether that is everyone’s goal or not is irrelevent to me. But, if it’s NOT ones goal, at least respect the ppl who are trying to achieve this goal. Please don’t blind yourselves, there is an issue at hand.
To #16… of course this guy is sick… why else would he be in the doctors office?
“Don’t look” is not the answer. Anyone writing such a comment is obviously a woman because a woman does not understand the mind of a man. Not to look would be the same as never listening to loshon hora. Can you do that? Not so easy ? Please be sensitive to us men who are trying to control ourselves in this area whiCh we know from the holy books effects our lives in everyway.( Sholom bayis, chinuch. Parnasa etc) thank you for understanding.
Btw you are coRrect. We are sick. Is this how you speak to a person who is sick? If someone has a cold , do you throw them outside in the snow? If you do, then you are the one who is sick!
To Ohev Yisrael… I suggest you learn Mussar and stop trying to control what other people wear, say or do.. because the only thing you can control is YOU! If you have an issue then be careful where you go, where you look, and where you shop. Chazal tell us that if a man walks where women are washing clothing when there is another path he is Nikra Rasha… nowhere do Chazal say a women should not wash her clothing… it is YOUR/OUR responsibility to control ourselves not her responsibility to not cause you to be “Nichshal”. Even if you can control how the Frum women dress, you can’t control what people wear in the street, in your office, on a bus, in a public park… Let’s focus on working on ourselves and let this woman’s husband/father worry about her. There is way too much self righteousness for my taste in this town… especiall for an “Ohev Yisrael”!
Just an eitzah toiva. Most people will encounter similar nisyonos on a daily basis whether walking in the streets, driving or shopping as you described. The best way to fight the yetzer horah is to not think about what you saw and move on. My takeaway from your letter is that you did not do that and kept obsessing over what you saw which is exactly what the yetzer hora wants you to do. The less attention you pay to these things the less roishem it will have on you. While you may have felt that writing a letter was toielles harrabim in actuality may have been your yetzer getting you to continue focusing on what you saw.
#19 and #20 – not that we are on his / their level – and that makes no difference in this case, -but the gedolim of yetertear, including the chofetz chaim, went to store owners in their towns to ask them to close on shabbos. Please tell the Chofetz Chaim that: MY BUSINESS, MY EMPLOYEES, MY PROPERTY, MY RULES = DONT LIKE IT? LEAVE !! shabbos and pritzus, makes no difference.
and the rest of you – – who seem to think that the one who wrote this was out of place – -and he should mind his own business, and he should not pay attention to employees…. should start thinking outside your closed box of pritzus and non-chalantism. the writer didnt make signs and stand in front of the store, didnt throw rocks…, all he did was write a letter posting his (correct) opinion. the fact that he’s not the Chofetz Chaim is irrelevant. He is trying to make a point that applies to anyone and everyone. maybe you dont belong in Lakewood if your ideals are so much different than the rest of the Torah community here.
As far as #12 – -thats a very nice thing, as long as its done with common sense that doesnt go overboard. and if there is a question – -then i’d advise to ask your Rov – -if its better to employ her or not.
“change yourself and you have changed the world!”
Train your eyes on the counter rather than the salesperson
#33 – -you wrote – nowhere do Chazal say a women should not wash her clothing…
stop being such an am ha’aretz. Learn, and you will see how many gemorohs speak about advising women not to attract attention in front of men. especially the gemoroh that speaks about the lady who was punished for being so medakdek in her steps that attracted men’s attention.
This reminds me of a story.
Back in the day we used to Davin in a Shul that was in the dining room of a girls school. There was a picture of a little girl divining on the wall (the picture was a drawing, not that it should make a difference) there was a bubble showing the words coming out of her mouth. This guy comes up to the picture and pulls it off the wall leaving only the bubble with the words on the wall. My brother then tapped him on the shoulder and said, you left the Kol Isha up.
We need to be level headed.
#1 for starters i applaud you for shopping on lakewood
we “buccha” ( it means pump) so much hard earned money into the local economy
we need to see the benefits of shopping local
we support each other
when we keep the parnassah here we all benefit
having said that
lets be honest lakewood is a tzniusdigge town
what you saw was the exception not the rule
how do you deal with the exception??
communication
call the store owner in a polite manner
B”H we all have sechel with yishuv hadass we can all benefit of supporting one another
#34 – you missed the point entirely. “moving on” doesnt negate one drop from the writers letter to this website.
#36 – you too missed the point. Im sure the letter writer does just that. but there are many people that shop there and unless you want to stand in front of the store with a big sign that reads “Caution – -non – modest women inside”, then your comment is worthless.
Any person who makes a comment in such a public forum is obviously looking to bash only, if the person cared really she would call up the store owner and complain nicely and show that it really bothers her in a ruchniusdika way or just DONT GO THERE.
I remember a story a while ago where a friend got into a fight with his barber over something small and all that caused him was that he wasnt able to use this great convenient barber again and had to go across town to a worse barber
#38 – thats a great joke. enjoyed it. but if your beginning words (“This reminds me of a stiory”) are to mean that you are making fun of the letter writer, then you are like the rest of the ones above. if your point was just for a good joke, then – -i enjoyed it, thank you
I DON’T understand!
Why the same posters who always complian about the landlords renting out to mexicans etc.
When it comes to tzinues issues they will scream just mind your own business! and don’t complain.
Same here if you don’t like someone’s tenant MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS and don’t complain,
if you ask a daas torah or if you look in chazal you will see that women who are machshil men by the way they dress etc. DON’T HAVE an excuse that its the men fault for looking and the women are over on LIFNEI EVEIR etc.
To Eli Manning,
Just for the record, I think you are great and I wish you all the luck in the world over the next eight weeks and hopefully way past there.
To the issue at hand, there are two extremes. One extreme is to say “every frum store is required to ensure that the staff dresses according to R. Falk’s standards, otherwise we will…….” (Fill in the blank with “not accept the storeowners children in school, put the store or the owner in cheirim, picket the owners house, etc.). The other extreme is to say “This is America, everyone could do what they want, if you don’t like it move to Iran or Meah Shearim”.
I think there is some area between these two extremes and it seems to me that that is what this letter writer has in mind. One can speak to the store owner and point out the issue. It may be very simple for the owner to inform his employees in a non judgemental bakovedike way that he would like to maintain communal norms as a dress code for all employees. On the other hand, there may be a special situation as was mentioned by an earlier comment that would prevent the owner from saying anything. The owner of course also has the prerogative to do nothing. But often a little awareness is all that is needed.
GO BIG BLUE!!!
Despite all the riffraff back and forth and all the musser back and forth…I definitely think it is fair to say that there is nothing wrong with someone penning such a letter to post about this topic; there is also an element of dan lekaf zechus the storeowner; there is also an element that the situation can always be improved in some way; and its also very disheartening the number of comments by people who are not bothered by the way people are dressing today.
Where I live we look at Lakewood as the core of Torah – true living which we try to strive to and support and send our children, and it is a terrible Chillul Hashem that someone gets bashed for remarking about a lack of Tznius in a frum store. Do you know what kind of message that sends???
to “think” #37… Uhh, not sure how this makes me an Am Haaretz… I just quoted a Gemarah and pointed out that from the Gemarah that I quoted we see it is the responsibility of the man to cotrol himself and not on the women. So, what’s point?
someones go tissues! its not the dress thats the problem – its you!
#34 you are absolutely right, but even though-so we must be “moche” We can’t put our focus on what we saw, but we can’t run away from the problems we have.
#16 – of course it’s best to talk in code and stereotypes, right?
😉
If you explain your issue clearly, it can be resolved. Code words serve only to close yourself to solutions, but perhaps that’s the aim.
Hamaivin does yavin – more about the situation than the stereotype.
#35 i did ask my Rov who happens to be from out of town. If you only knew how bad off this girl was 9 month ago and where she is today , you would realize howREJECTION destroys ,and what caring and acceptance accomplishes . Thank you
#46 – ill explain if you need. your point shows that men need to control themselves. Correct. HOWEVER the women need to as well. your comment was that women need not worry how they place themselves. False.
#47 – read my comments above. instead of sitting and doing nothing, and saying to everyone – -go mind your own business, with a logic of “everyone do whatever they want….”, you are stunting your torah growth.
To Think says. You sound like you have it all figured out. I love the way you feel no one gets it except for you. Your gaivah is preventing you from seeing yourself clearly.
This article is sick!!. Unfortunately we have a quite few unhealthy individuals in this town, when they read this article they take it to the next level. i.e. following woman out of Dr Shaniks office. (which by the way is borderline stalking). I agree that everyone’s entitled to their opinion which I would assume is based on their level of tznius, but can’t we all just keep it to ourselves!?
Dont shop there
I meant to say bravo #22
#51 “Think” … (you may want to try to do just that)… you missed my point completely… What I was showing from the Gemarah wasn’t that men need to control themselves.. That is obvious. What I was showing you is that the Gemarah does not say that the women should change their behavior or habits, as you would like these women to do because it potentially causes you to be Nichshal. They can and should continue on as they were doing and it is YOU/us, the men that should take precautions to avoid the problem. Got it now?
I have noticed that people have an unfortunate tendency to impose their standards on others. However, there is certainly a minimal standard that could be required of employees, and there’s no reason an employer can’t have a dress code that will avoid offending customers.
So while it’s true the poster could approach the particular proprietor, unfortunately there are many business owners, employing women from various communities, who don’t take the trouble to require a business-like attire that avoids distracting or distressing customers.
Dr. Tornopsky has a beautiful and sensitive notice in his back office explaining tznius to his employees, which anyone could do well to emulate.
Although not everyone need agree with the standards of Rav Falk, he does point out that in England, hotels have dress codes for their employees that we would be pleased to see in businesses we frequent. A google on ‘dress code for employees’ is enlightening.
Hey Eli Manning, I know where you used to daven! I saw that happen. Classic!
Dear TLS,
With the passing of Shelly A”h, there were quite a lot of comments from all different types of people. A great portion of those comments were full of regret. . I thought, “What if people were nicer to one another, would we all have such regrets when an acquaintance, friend, enemy, or relative passes away r”l”?
It was truly heartbreaking to read all the comments from people who were hurtful to Shelly A”H. Besides for the punishment from God for not treating a fellow yid like we want to be treated, was it all worth it? Is it worth it to make fun of another? Is it worth it to fight? Is it worth it to torture another yid which you may never know how much damage you have caused? I really don’t have much more to say other than convey a crucial message: DERECH ERETZ KUDMAH LATORAH.
Let’s not forget that Derech Eretz comes first— Don’t treat someone the way you would not want to be treated.
STOP THINKING THAT WE HAVE TO CHANGE THE WHOLE WORLD AND EVERYONE EVEN OUR WORKERS ETC. STOP LOOKING AND CHECKING EVERYONE CLOTHING. KEEP YOUR EYES FOR URSELFS,AND IM SURE THAT IF UR ARE SUCH A TZADIK UR KIDS WILL BE FINE!!
what i still find amazing 2 this day is how every1 of these people start off their letters how they r not just another complainer and how they r speaking from the dephs of their heart! spare us please! u dont like it dont shop there!
This entire post nauseated me. Shame on all the judgemental and self righteous critics.
Moreover, its obvious that you are getting ” thrills” railing against women and length of skirts. The hypocrisy is stunning.
last i checked this was lakewood1 The town that Reb Ahron Kotler Zt’l built with Mesiras nefesh and strong standards for TZNIUS! HE SURELY WOULD NOT HAVE ALOUD SUCH A LACK OF TZNIUS HERE! its only the last 10 years that this Mageifa started! Noone would even think of dressing like that a few years ago! So who gives those people a right to come here and chage things? maybe they should mind their business elsewhere and let Lakewood stay a proper place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
to #63: U sound like (moderated) by saying who gave those ppl a right living here. Shame on you,go to meah shearim,maybe there you will be able to be a bigger tzadik. And anyway what are you doing on the internet?
You really have no idea what Reb Aaron wanted from lakewood. Rev Aaron was a giant who really understood poeple, as we will never understand. LAKEWOOD was never meant to be this way?!?!?! Lakewood was supposed to be a place, where great minds and LOVE for TORAH, JEWISH NATION AS A WHOLE, could come for a few months a year and learn the HOLY TORAH! everyone comes up with diff. reasons and points ( i can park where i like bc i cant be late? what ever excuse that means ) where’s the lakewood that REB AARON built? Do you think that Reb Aaron when he walked down the steet, didnt say hello to everyone as he passed? when was the last time “WE” did? When was the LAST TIME, we did something to help someone NO MATTER, if he was diff.? NO MATTER if he was jewish? WHY have we sunk so low? We have TORAH at our fingertips, and yet WHY are we SO FAR AWAY???
what about the male store owners of women oriented stores telling them what size or style they should be wearing ???? now we are talking pretzos!!!
I agree its not everyones business how others dress, but some things have gotten out of hand. The new style is to wear skirts right above the knee, and very suprisingly I have seen so much of that in Lakewood. What have we come to that in Lakewood pple are walking around like that.