A question that needs to be answered.
So, I’m pretty sure this happens to a lot of people:
You’re a nice Jewish boy, grew up wherever, in Frum household, where Torah-Learning is valued. Maybe your father is still learns or works in Klei Kodesh, or maybe he works to make a Parnassah, but still has his 2 Chavrusas a day & is very proud of that.
You go to (insert any mainstream mid-level Yeshiva name), then you go to Israel (Mir? Or something on a drop higher level) and come to BMG at age 22. After the freezer opens, you get married to a nice Jewish girl that grew up in similar background to you.
You’re learning when you get married. On the dates you made it clear that Learning is very important to you, and gave a whole speech about what it means, and sacrifices etc. etc. etc., but you did acknowledge that it’s a short-term plan, and will likely need to go out to work after a few years (3? Or 5?) to make a Parnassah, and anyways you can’t see yourself really learning forever. Either your Shver provides you support while you’re learning, or your wife has a decent job (Madison Title anyone?), or your father (who happens to be a Magid Shiur) has a good side-business & your supported through him.
This is probably the reality of around 50% of the married guys in BMG. Of course, of course, life isn’t so black & white, and everyone is different (yes, you have an OTD sister), but the point is that there are hundreds of young married couples that are Zoche to start off their marriage with the Husband Learning full-time. It’s 3 Sedarim a day (except for Shana Rishona) of learning the Torah Hakdosha. With this Zchus, comes the lifestyle of a learning guy.
You wear a hat & jacket to davening (and you actually Daven 3 times a day), you don’t let your kids watch Paw Patrol all day (why can’t they just run around outside like the good-old-days?) & c”v you would never go to a beach in the summer (efsher your wife could go take a walk with her friend on the boardwalk). Don’t get caught up in the examples. They’re just examples. The fact is that B”H being a ‘learning guy’ comes along with upholding a certain hanhagah, a certain ‘Yeshivishe’ higher standard of living.
Fast forward a few years. You’re already working for 2.5 years and making a Parnassah. Nothing specific happened over the years in regard to your Yidishkeit, and you are still a frum Jew, with your heart in the right place. C’V you’re not doing anything drastic (or even bad?), and you learn every day too. But the fact is that you no longer wear a hat & jacket to davening, sometimes Mincha is missed (the meeting was longer than expected), for vacation you’re going away to a beach resort (with plenty of Pritzus) & your kids are watching Peppa Pig all day.
Hear me out: This is not at all giving an opinion on whether these stuff are good or bad. And they’re just examples too. The specifics aren’t the point. The point is that a majority of guys in this situation, after a few years (or months) of working, have had their standards lowered. They are doing things that they wouldn’t have done when they were learning. Again, this is not a discussion on what specific items are right or wrong, this is just to point out that individuals are doing specific stuff now (as working men) that they would have never done when they were learning.
What happened?
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Wow. Just wow. Author is spitting fire!
I’ve never read something so perfectly accurate to describe this issue with such detail that’s spot on!
Kol Hakavod!
This generation has nisyonos, whether in Kollel or out of kollel, some grab the opportunity and grow right away, some are faced with a sink or swim situation and then they start to really shteig, and this can be inside or outside of Kollel, in various tests, the fact is that Hashem loves all Jews, even if they feel they are sinking, Hashem loves them and sees their strokes, kicks, splashes and gasps and all of it gives nachas to Hashem. This is what we are here for, we did not come to this world to be perfect, to stay perfect, and for sure not to fool ourselves and think that this world is perfect.
So, absolutely do not judge any Jew by their external looks, anyone who is in Kollel should only wear a hat, even if it causes ga’avah, but if someone who is out in the world chooses not to wear a hat he is by no means a ba’al aveirah, and to tell the truth, even if he would not wear a yarmulka he is still a tzadik. And so too for playing stupid video games, as a Rav, but it very possibly has nothing wrong with it. But if he and his family are not careful around shiktzes, do not look the other way, do not refrain from an extended conversation, then even a wide brimmed hat will not wash off the rish’us from inside their heart.
And i am safely assuming that most of Lakewood, along with most of Klal Yisroel, are tzadikim, no matter how they look on the outside, it is what’s in their hearts which is what counts.
What happened is that we took a system meant for a few yechidim and we forced it on the masses. There is going to be a lot of rotten apples in the barrel. I was one. I could have used a system tailored to me.
What is this based on? And if true i don’t find it surprising or unexpected.
Whether you are right or wrong in your assumptions, there are sooooo many מאמרי חז״ל that make this letter so wrong on so many levels, I am shocked that it was even posted. Everyone needs to look at themselves in the mirror and work on their issues. Stop looking in everyone else’s life and stop making demonising comments where are you put so many people in the same boat. (And don’t say that you are not even lying then because at the end of the day, that’s what you are doing)
throwin out Ma’amarei chazal like a baki from Timbuktu here.
This guy is SPOT on.
ANd unfortunately the sentiment of “everyone look in the mirror” is a moronic notion, It takes a community to build a community, (shocker no?) and sadly the face of it is changing.
And every couple who does so, their kids start even further out.
#1 I didn’t mention 1 Chazal. I said there are many. #2 you have no clue who I am and maybe yes, I am a Baki in chazal.
“It takes a community to build a community”?!! What sort of nonsense saying is that. This community was built by 1 person, R Aharon,. Like it or not we don’t go around lumping groups of people together for negative reasons.
My last comment was supposed to end of saying that don’t say that you are not demonising them, because that is what you were doing
All I’m saying is that I didn’t realize there was anything beyond the Mir…
Amazing 880 is still on TLS after they left the radio!
More likely what happened when they were in yeshiva then what happened when they went to work
Very well written.
Don’t blame it on working; it’s the individual himself, it was always in him.
didnt catch where he blamed it on anything other than the guy
I’m actually grateful to know there are more guys like me out there.
The times are changing, you sound like a Boomer.
and you aint no ben torah. (vacays to beach resorts?!)
Times will always stay the same, who is righteous and who chooses the path of the wicked, yea that changes.
Bye…
hope you return some day, i really do, and i actually care, but lets be honest here….
I’ll tell you what happened. When society pressures you to do things “because everyone else does it” and because “it’ll get you a good Shidduch and the family a good name” you’re never really choosing for yourself, you’re choosing for others. So when you finally have financial independence from your parents and in-laws and you can finally make your own decisions for yourself, that’s when the truth comes out. A 19 year old girl who marries a 22 year old boy, which according to Halacha is the right thing to do, but I’m not sure how fully developed they are in their Hashkafos and life choices, so over the next few years of finding themselves they figure themselves out and make choices based of their past experiences of being forced to do things for ulterior motives.
I think part of the Shidduch crisis is that as boys and girls get older, they start to find things out about themselves and change perspectives. It’s a maturity that happens over time. If we are Mechanech our children to make more personal choices Al Pi Torah and Halacha, they will find more Geshmak in the lifestyle we are training them in. “Chanoch L’Na’ar Al Pi Darko – Gam Ki Yazkin Lo Yasur M’meno.”
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Thank you
Stop degrading our heilige Klal Yisroel. Is that what the Berdichever would do?
So the berdichiver and Yirmiyahu hanavi walk in to a shteible….
At first I smiled at this cause I thought it was a funny joke, but then I stopped because I realized it’s making a leitzanus out of our Neviim and Gedolei Hador.
I know you didn’t mean it that way, but please be careful. Yirmiyahu Hanavi cried while writing his nevuah. His love for every yid in Klal Yisrael was so great, even the lowest among them who were ovdei avodah zarah. He did not want to live during the times of the churban, but he was chosen for this task. Everything he wrote was al pi d’var Hashem, and he was chosen for this task BECAUSE of his great Ahavas Yisrael for every single Jew, no matter how low his level was.
Please don’t use our great Neviim and Gedolei Yisrael for jokes. We have no concept of their Ahavas Yisrael or their greatness, but we must remember to always speak and refer to them with the deepest respect and appreciation, knowing that we don’t even come close to their shadow, yet they would have still welcomed us and embraced us with open arms, no matter where we’ve fallen or what we’ve done, simply because we’re a yid.
Yirmeyahu was a navi. This letter writer is not.
ok, so the chafetz chaim.
And please dont say he never spoke critically about groups he saw doing the wrong thing.
That would just mean you havent read his sefer/im
I don’t know what happened. But I can tell you this much that anyone that sets himself with גדרים (boundaries) in קדושה…never mind all the rest for now but anyone that is careful in the aspect of קדושה cannot relate to this conversation… Children struggling yes, it’s out there but its a different topic. You want to know what happened to ‘us men.’ Well, that’s the answer! Those that let their guard down as it relates to עניני קדושה it will affect every aspect of their yiddishkeit within time…
100%
lets see how much men 2nd this
and yes don’t complain that your husband doesn’t learn/daven/watches too much if your dressed for the runway
What happened?! Nothing happened, that’s exactly the point. These people were “cruising” along the system and made little internal changes or convictions. So many people are simply just a reflection of the environment they find themselves. A real Mussur Sefer was never learned or internalized. It’s the sad reality. It is time for the true Bnei Torah in the workforce to unify.
People change over time.
Hence the Lakewood mindset has been broken and welcome to a typical frum Ehrliche out of town family. Hatzlocha.
Running on the concept of the writers main point that things change and not the specifics of peppa pig Chas v’shalom or going to the beach.
Hence the mindset of striving for Olam Haba has been broken, and the mindset of having “a good life” has set in, pls dont denigrate erlihch people from out of town.
Are you from out of town? I am. Wasn’t denigrating anything. The are many ppl striving for olam habah and not wearing a hat to mincha. I think there’s a mindset that’s in place that everyone has to be the same. I don’t think it’s true though. That’s all. Sorry if I offended you.
Good point. Let none of us ever go to work. Let the wives/mothers slave away. This way we can wear hats ‘n’ jackets till we’re 90. Please show evidence of full time learning by everybody during, say, the Beis Hamikdash era. You can’t. Mostly agriculture by MOST, and gifts to Levis & Kohens who learned. But not all.
I went to a non-Jewish college in 2013 dressed like a yeshiva guy. Why can’t they wear their hat and jacket until they’re 90 while working too..?
Not really LeMeisseh to answer like that. The writer has a good point and sadly there are many, that once were Yeshiva people and now are no longer. When I was younger only those that never learnt in Yeshiva would daven without hats and jackets. Today at offices, vacation spots and chol Hamoed attractions there are soooo many that just don’t care to show respect for what they were taught and kept until they left Yeshiva. Years ago, it was unheard of to go somewhere and eat from a place that did not have an excellent hechsher, today unfortunately these same people, when on trips or vacations will not keep to the standards of yesteryear.
Chacham,
I’m a haymish guy, wore hat & jacket till my 1st child was born, then went to work. I only wear hat & jacket on Shabbos. Guess what?
I’m frummer today in my sports shirt and green socks. I have more kavanah at davening, have a greater appreciation of Hashem in my mid senior era. I learn about an hour a day , and developed a greater simcha shel mitzvos as I experience more of life.
This kollel hat ‘n’ jacket stuff is propaganda. So many truly, but truly, frum ehrlich Yidden in Ererz Yisroel who DO NOT wear this.
This chitzonius obsession is trite, old, and inspires few.
I repeat : Married people en masse pushed to learn all day is
something new ( about 40 years old ). Let’s stop revising history . Honesty, not sheker, please.
think you missed the point here.
Its not that people must learn the whole day at all.
But to transition from a ehrliche ben torah whos midakdek in halachah, and strives to do mitzvos with nekiyus, to going to beach vacations… thats a whole different story
You are projecting your unique experiences on the masses, while calling it out. We are happy that you are “growing”, but your personal experiences are not the standard.
That’s not what the letter writer was saying. No one wants the women to be worked down to the bone. “Hats ‘n’ jackets” is an example – the letter writer specifies this. Her point is why did the standards lower. I don’t agree that hats and jackets are a higher level, but clearly the people who wear them do think so. Can you say honestly that people *don’t* get changed or at least affected by their surroundings? What’s it called? Hashpaas hasevivah? Yeah, that old thing. Yes, working is necessary. Yes, people’s standards change. That’s normal. Should you accept that? Your decision. However, does it matter if they learned full day in the times of the bais hamikdash? Learning is good, you can’t refute that. Working might be necessary for some, you can’t refute that. Learning is a beautiful thing. Does that change once someone gets married? No, that changes when your learning is hurting someone else (example: your hardworking wife). But my point remains: just because they weren’t able to do something good in the times of the bais hamikdash, that doesn’t mean that if you have the ability, you shouldn’t do that either. That’s asinine. On a totally different note, you sound very jaded and defensive about men needing to work. Do you expect to be taken seriously when you sound like a joke? Communications 101.
There is a monthly Vaad in Lakewood that really gives me chizzuk in these areas, maybe someone can post info about it .
Duh. As soon as they started working, they started reading the The Lakewood Scoop.
Lol
wow this is on the money, (pun intend)
Excellent topic, you bring up good, valid points, very appropriate discussion for the times. Chazal say that ALL people are influenced by their surroundings or environment.
Once a man (as per this discussion) leaves the protection of the four walls of the beis medrash, he us subject to many dangers and pitfalls.
From a different perspective, the gedoilim made a hoiraos shaah that women should work to support kollel husbands and be breadwinners and we see the same issues you addressed from a different angle.
Hashem should help in these challenging times and I myself and all of us should seek out and heed the words of manhogim and gedoilim.
Every person needs a qualified, reliable source for guidance.
What happened was you adjusted and found your center and your comfortable with that. Sounds ok to me to be honest
its very simple,
When you are in a Torah environment automatically your standards are higher. Now typically there are 2 types of people in this situation. 1 type of person is that he was on a higher spiritual level in terms of Yiddishkiet and he got caught up in the business world and was brought down. Person type 2 which in my belief is what is more what is happening these days, is a person who is really on a lower level in terms of Yiddishkiet, is not real with himself, and only does what he does, and is the type of person of what he does only because of other people or of his surroundings. Now in the first type of person it’s very simple what happened. what happened? He was brought down and therefore is acting like this. In-person type 2 when he is learning and in his setting of people etc. he acts in one way but the way he is deep inside is another way and this is an issue regarding shidduchim and an issue all abroad. We all see people in Kollel or yeshiva that come to sadder and learn for about 30 % at most and the rest either came late, or shmooze when they come, or like to battel. Whatever the case is alot of those people say or officially learning for 10 years or are considered long-time learners. The bottom line is that they are not a long-time learner at all and they would have a more accomplished life learning for a couple of hours a day and either making money to provide for their family or do chesed for the klal and have a fulfilling life that way. Knowing that you are doing what you can do and knowing your limits is crucial, there is no reason to say or act like you are a long-time learner when you’re not. Being real with yourself and not fake is key to life, when you are real and do what you can and learn for just a couple of hours a day and fulfilling your life with other accomplishing things is excellent and Hashem is supper happy with such a person everyone has there challenges and their weaknesses now back to person 2 since he is being ”fake” with himself as soon as he opens up to a different world and is in a different setting he changes and it can happen fast and it happens too often. There for acts the way he does.
Its because being in a working environment is very different than being in a yeshiva environment.
That being said one can mitigitate the risks of occurring by: 1) Reading, or better learning, Ben Torah for Life multiple times, if possible with a spouse or Chavrusa. 2) Joining the Monthly Haskahfa in the Workplace Vaadim in Torah Links. Past Vaadim are available on TorahAnytime, and you can get updates by WhatsApp by contacting 347 450 9146 (there is also a email updates option). 3) Joining a evening or morning learning seder with like-minded working Bnei Torah. 4) Developing a relationship with a Rav or Rebbi figure who one can asks shealos to and will pick up if things are going down hill.
What in the world?
This is why you should wear a hat and jacket to work and on vacation
Who says this is the norm? Did you take a poll? Have the statistics available?
All the men I know that started out that same way and then started working haven’t lowered their standards. My husband has been working for about 10 years now and you wouldn’t know that he wasn’t in Bmg if you met him on the street
Baruch Hashem for you! however, the author here points to things which sadly many of us see, myself included.
The answer is very simple and actually I had a rebbi of mine give a shmuz on this,it all starts when these boys are in high school and the rabbayim don’t tell them that the reason for a hat and jacket etc….is not cause you are in yeshiva it’s because you are a yid part of klal Yisroel and that’s why we have these standards….you like many others set apart a “learning guy” from a regular frum working person,it’s all one standard of becoming close to hashem,boys are just not taught that and are taught that these standards are for when I am in yeshiva so hence when they leave they drop all of the standards etc…….
Which such a detailed rundown of subjects personal life trajectory and lifestyle, I would have thought that you have the answer to “what happened?”
The chasidim in Williamsburg, Monroe, and Skver have figured out how to stay the same level religious while being out in the working world.
In the litvishe world, the Judaism is built around the yeshiva and the kollel systems. When someone leaves yeshiva and or kollel, he’s leaving the structure that built and maintained his religious level.
In the chasidishe world the Judaism is built on the chassidus and on the leadership of the rebbe, so when they start working they aren’t leaving the structure that built who they were, hence their ability to stay at the same frum level.
Litvaks should learn from chasidim and develop solid structures for those no longer in yeshiva/kollel so they can still feel like they are connected when they leave the yeshiva/kollel system.
The real chasidim and the real litvaks as well adhere to the full torah . And Those that have a real rebbe.
All others are in the same boat and in danger of drowning in the world craziness. A rebbe in name only whether chasidic or litvish doesn’t help.
This is an excellent observation. So true.
I would just add that there are many who follow the crowd or ‘float’ through the system. They aren’t taught the reasson for everything they do OR the hashkafos of one yeshiva weren’t the same as a different one they attended so they are confused as to what is necessary and what they do for ‘looks’.
If they are weak learners and just don’t have sipuk from it they burn out in yeshiva gedola and once they’re out there’s no one left to impress so the little they do, falls by the wayside. I’m talking from experience so please don’t attack.
A better system would see a RY/RM/Mashgiach taking charge at a younger age like after a year or 2 in YG to determine the individuals path. I would be much better off today if I would have had a working/learning path from an earlier age than straight learning for 10 years. Now I’m burnt out and all I can is work. Sad.
BH at least it didn’t sink to mixed dancing.
What happened is that it is not your business. Everyone should keep their standards and everyone should refrain judging anyone else.
How about a little ahavas yisroel and not judging others.
Thank you!
Ox deposit.
what are YOU hiding?
This idiocy that as a community we shouldnt have community standards comes from one type of person.
Mi Sh’libo nokfo.
I’m not sure what your question is, when someone is in the Koslei Bais Hamedrash even if he’s not the biggest Masmid he has a shmirah that keeps him and watches over him…he’s a Ben Yeshiva! once someone steps out of the Bais Medrash even with the most noble of intentions to provide for his family etc he loses that.
In yeshiva you have to build a strong backbone and have good connections with chashuve people like a rov. Otherwise the yetzer hara saya aseh kach …..
Your letter describes someone who didn’t live up to his hashkofos taught in the yeshivas mentioned etc…You can be learning and be rotten and you can work and be fresh…
The downfall of all keddusha is being stuck in our surroundings and keeping strong. Its not easy but perseverance is key. The joke they say is a farnyoked bochur will grow up to be an erliche yid…so be strong and take it one day at a time. P.S. look around and see thousands of erhliche yidden not doing the above mentioned. I know many working guys that don’t even have smartphones etc…
The current yeshiva system causes boys to feel their goal is to spend their whole life in learning. So…
1 When that doesn’t happen for someone, they view themselves as not being good, so they might as well be bad. (Similar to “saint or sinner syndrome”)
2. They have no chinuch how to be a Ben Torah not within the framework of full time learning.
After being yelled at and forced to wear it in the street for so many years even though I find it uncomfortable, I’m glad to only wear it for Shabbos
sam you are wrong, every person has their own nisyonos. there is no question that the chasidim change very much when they go out to work ( especially when they change their clothing while they are truck drivers or plumbers) just the same as the yeshivaleit. there is nothing wrong with that it’s called being normal and not trying to put on a show
I read the article and not the responses so if I’m redundant I apologize. I totally agree and also know it’s not the case all the time by every person. I wonder then when a girl wants a solid learning boy and people tell her not to be picky and middos is all that counts and she is single and older….should she settle for that working boy that already had some yerida when every bone in her body screams NO!?!?!
your on point here. 100%
Solution: One should learn the new popular “Ben Torah for Life” by Rav Aharon Lopiansky!
What’s pepa pig
Wow I honestly never knew this is how it is for some after going out to work. I feel this is the exact opposite for us bH.
Well written.
Bsheim the tzibbur – May I suggest that the Agudah H3 offer a segment or course which will address this important concern (or share recordings for this)
In many cities and communities, we find working Bnei Torah whose davening is a davening, learning is real learning, and the middos are enviable. Take Washington Heights for example, the paradigm of Torah true balebatim, who serve in many Klal positions. And the same goes for many other places. So why do some struggle? In my humble opinion – because they were not taught or brought up knowing that this balance exists.
Problem: No Seder in Mussar each day
Solution: Learn mussar every day!
That simple
Ah Gut Gebenched Yuhr to Everyone!
Thank you for this eye opening letter.
I really feel it brings to the forefront a challenge that so many of us are facing but not even realizing it!
Let’s strengthen ourselves to take a step back and truly say: WHAT HAPPENED?
I am a ben Torah for life (like that book!) and I and my family deserve better than for me to drop my standards, simply because I went to work…!
This is made up in your head, I know hundreds of people.
It just feels like you’re denigrating “Yeshivish” people who had to go to work for whatever reason.
To criticize an entire segment of Klal Yisrael with Motzie Shem Rah, for what?
To expand your own ego?
Moshe Rabbenu, Isaiah, Eliyahu Hanavi, when criticizing klal Yisreal too much, Hashem got upset with them.
We must look for the good in people, we must give mussar in a nice way so people will accept it.
And all people whether they are working or learning be proud of themselves and work on the things that need to be worked on themselves.
Don’t feel bad for writing this letter, everyone makes mistakes.
May we all grow together and may mashiach come soon.
LOL, come to my neighborhood, bh most are ehrlich working people, but youll find the group of them in the back corner talking all throughout davening, nowhere to be seen near shul during the week, dressing like justin beber for their vacays, posting all sorts of garbage on their social media.
Yes, i am freindly with these chevra, they are also part of klal yisroel, they are my age, and we are all working and in similar positions. Sadly there are a small (yet too high) percentage of them who have really gone over the top, and another segment, who arent bad, but “bekirbam”.
As a 25 year old yungerman who is still in kollel full time, all I can say that this issue is a lakewood specific issue, this is not an issue in any other community, (based on about 75 guys I know personally who went to work) only in Lakewood do we see this, and it disgusts me!!!
And I believe the reason is, there are a few yungerleit (no names), who in the past years apparently made a lot of money and they kind of started living a lifestyle that’s not really for a Ben torah, ( parties, etc…), so automatically their families standards get lowered (spiritually). and for some reason yungerleit my age who go out to work, think that the only way to “make it” in the business world would is to dress like “those (rich)guys”, drive the cars they drive, wear the watches etc. , and ultimately do everything they do, and that’s how you get rich. So yes while nobody would deny that this is an issue(normal people), I’ll say again it’s a lakewood issue (specifically the health care industry, but that’s a separate matter, it’s a industry that ruined more yungerleit then the internet) .
With that said, I really hope that when I go out to work, whoever my hoss and colleagues will be, I just hope thy respect my boundaries and my lifestyle.
There is one exception to the original authors trajectory of life: chassidim. By us there is zero difference between a working and learning family- whether it be in mindset, behavior or in dress. In the yeshiva world you can spot a non learning family from miles away. Not so by us. Nothing shifts when the man leaves kollel to earn a living. It’s this- and so much more- that makes me proud to be chassidish.
my friend , can I offer you a Tuna Beigel?
Working is good, keeps one busy and out of trouble.
There are many neighborhoods of such people in the towns surrounding Lakewood. They form a Shul, hire a top Ruv, than move it into its own nice building, of which it’s the only Shul within walking distance and has 95 families that are members. Friday night it’s full but the talking doesn’t stop, shabbos morning there are 18 mispalelim, shabbos mincha there’s no minyan of which they’re stoned ( drunk & sleeping) they must run to houses to get a 10th person, I’ve spent shabbosim in a few such neighborhoods.
However the children of such people (the few children that they have) see how their mother is hurting deep down from their fathers lifestyle and side with the mother, thus do very well in Yeshiva and become very frum, yeshivish, Beni Torah.
On the other hand the most yeshivishe bnei Torah whom live in poorer neighborhoods have alout of trouble with kids going off of the derech as the kids feel pressured and forced with no other choice.
You are giving some examples , and thereby implying that the entire working crowd is shvach. This is out and out blatant motzi shem rah .
Meanwhile, there’s article after article with comments about the gashmius issues in the community. Presumably, this problem refers to the hat & jacket, daf yomi, 3x a day b’minyan daveners.
Wheen a chusid acts this way, he’s referred to as a tuna bagel. When a yeshiva guy acts this way, he’s called ben torah. The problem is that he’s in a crowd of the same level people do he doesn’t feel bad. And if he shows up to mincha in street clothes he’s applauded for davening with a minyan. In fact they let him go up to the amud that way too, and if the Rav wants to implement a hat and jacket rule for the baal tefillah he’s criticized for being too frum.
R’ Yochanon Kohen Gadol fell off the derech at the end. A recent gadol was asked what’s to prevent this from happening to us when we leave Bais medrash? To which he replied only mussar can prevent that. Yetzer harah is powerful, your question is the norm, the ones who stay a Ben Torah work every day to remain that way. They are the childish.
Let’s cut to the chase. Almost every Tanna, Amorah & talmidim had jobs. Our great Rishonim had jobs and businesses. When did this brainwashing of yeshiva and Beis Yakov bochorim and girls to not work , begin ? What are learners doing on blogs ?
YOur a 1 trick pony.
DId you notice anywhere here that he said not to work?
Rather he was decruing the aspect that for some, work brings with it a certain life-style, that is quite abhorrent
Read between his lines. If certain work environments present nisyoinos, then deal with it, this is going on for centuries, nothing new. What’s new is dissecting and smearing work. I’m from the late ’50s when all went to work, and very frum people too, and nobody made a deal about it. Our parents and grandparents worked to make an honest living to provide for family, give tzeddakah and live as religious Jews.
Suddenly for a young, strong yungerman to work is a whole pilpul. Not everybody belongs in kollel, few do, and few did over 1,000 years. Learn some history.
well sir, the community as a whole has grown tremendously from the standards that were in the late 50’s.
so yes, when one goes to work today, he IS different than one going to work back then.
He’s starting on a higher “ramah” and the challenges he faces not to lose that, are different.
And heres the real Kicker. somone who never was on that madreiga, would not fall form it, but once someone falls from a madreiga the fall can be severe
The answer is you’re not being misorer with shmoozen as much as before. Learning Torah creates more Yiras Shamayim. You are pressured for money since the flow has stopped from the shver. Your family has grown and your wife is going crazy trying to manage all the kids and her job. I don’t believe guys don’t wear their hats and jackets but if it’s true it’s because they don’t feel they’re at the level they used to be and therefore don’t expect the Kavod of a ben torah that a hat a jacket implies.
1)
There is no auto pilot tobeinga ben Torah; as much as we wish that conforming to a system that is Kodesh Kodoshim will allow for us to be on the Kodesh path this wont happen unless we each and every one of us has an education of how to WORK with Torah and Mitzvos throughout all the Tekufos of out life with CHIOCE or BECHIRAH not just SYSTEMS.
We would ove to figura out a path that will work like a bus going down hill till 120 but there is no such path not even if the path is called Torah Torah Torah or if the path is called TYH TYH TYH or even if the path is called Kodosh Kodosh Kodosh.
The path is a path of Sheva Yipol Tzaddik Vkam. The path is a Path of Hatznea Leches Im Elokecha.
To sum it up its a path of WORK.
2)
We all need a CURRENT LIVE rebbe no matter how great the Rebbe we once HAD WAS we need to make sure that we have a Rebbe now in the here and now in the matters of Yirah ; a rebbe Muvhak in Yirah.
many people either never really had a erbbe muvhak in Yirah or they once had one and thats where it stays in the past. No! In addition to ones Rebbe of the past a ben torah needs to seek another LIVE Rebbe.
Rav Wolbe had the greatest rebbe Rav Yeruchum, but he went from Rebbe to Rebbe all his life:
From Reb Yeruchum to
To the Chazon Ish from the CChazon ISH to
Rav Epstein or Rav Yoel Kluft
To Rav Hutner
To Lehavdil Rav Yonoson David Shlit”a, the son in law of Rav Hutner, who was younger than Rav Wolbe
There is no aauto pilot there is only WORK!
I don’t get a lot of the specific references or examples but I get the general idea.
It’s a multitude of factors, and may commenter above either said it or because of denial brought out these points
1. People don’t want to confront the reality that they never chose of any of this and don’t truly want to be ovdei Hashem 24/7. Not just do everything correctly and stay away from incorrect but actually embody and achieve… they just want to belong, go with the flow, not be castigated, not be shunned… they have no idea who they are, why they are here, and who they want to be. Thus there was never any internal growth or actualization but only superfical appearances at different stages
All this is whether in kolel or working.
2. Many people don’t even comprehend that they don’t get this so they enter into different stages of denial and busy themselves with becoming religious fanatics and that becomes their reason for being, they constantly put down others and that alleviates the feeling of nothingness, they number pain with drinking or drugs or luxury items, they busy themselves with organizations of chesed or become askanim, they chase after kavod or powere because if others honor them or need them then they must be valuable and important, anything to avoid facing the crippling reality that they are getting closer to death every second and they have no idea who they are or want to be and aren’t using their bechira to make His name permeate the world around us and to hasten umalah haeratz de’ah…
3. This disconnect from themselves because even more twisted as they do mitzvos and learn and do chesed and get nothing from it and become more disenfranchised from being frum. Either some thing is wrong with the religion or something is very wrong with me and since either is too frightening to face they go deeper and deeper into denial. They run to more speeches and try to do mitzvos with more hidur and scream more mussar at people and it works for a second or two but after the euphoric rush wears off, you are still left with the empty pit of yourself that you don’t know who you are or are making any decisions to be someone. Or you can further into self delusion that you are amazing and constantly tell everyone such because you need external validation because of some level you know it’s baloney. Or you are so far gone and actually believe the self decepand go to the grave thinking a life of self worship was a life well lived
So on the positive side anyone who sees this change in themselves and wants different, should know 1. it’s great they are yearning 2. this is most probably the true you and all the years in yeshiva… were teenage expiremntal years and you were doing such in order to fit in or because of some euphoric rush but unless you really figured yourself out and were making all those decisions calmly and measuredly they weren’t reflective of who you wanted to be for the rest of your life. 3. It’s never too late, R Akiva was 40 and soared to the greatet heights and changed the future for all of creation and even Moshe Rabbeinu was jealous. So exercise your free will and determine who you want to be from the inner recesses of your mind and heart, independent of anyone or anything but because you’ve internalized that you are living in His space and you are living for Him and that is why you were created snd every second is another instance to reveal His presencein this world and to make shalom bein pamalia shel mata and pamalia she mala, and become that person slowly from now and onwards 24/7 ad beis go’al.
Well written and on point.
Thank you for this.
Trying to raise kids here to do the inner work so they are real about who they are and it’s difficult and bordering on “S.O.” 😉
Hatzlacha to all those who wanna make it real, at any age or stage.
Well written and pretty accurate. Not defending it, of course everyone should try to uphold their standards and stay a Ben Torah in every aspect and look to grow. I’ll just say, I know a lot of these guys and I do think important to focus on the positive. For the most part, good people, good Jews, davening, learning, chesed, really wonderful people.
But yes, I agree with the overall observation and applies to men and women
I think the same thing can be true with women as well. My husband learned for a long time and now is in Klei Kodesh. But I work long hours and am so super busy there is very little time and energy for ruchnius growth. My level has definitely gone down in the over 30 years that I’m married. I wonder how many other women feel this way. I’m hopeful that when life gets less hectic, I’ll be able to go to shiurim and have time to daven, etc.
In the Yeshivishe world, for better or worse, there’s a focus on chutznius. And it’s a very specific, and takes a whole lot of shteiging to explain it, but it doesn’t bear any relation to Yiddishkheit whatsoever.
Bein odom l’begodim is just the symptom.
Has there ever been a time where more men are learning Torah and most were learning so little?
In yeshiva, the limit of Torah learning is teitch sheets for a couple of years. Navi? Not unless you’re leining the haftorah, except for girls for some reason. Mishnayos? One, maybe two masechtos tops. Then onto the Gemara, to the exclusion of everything else, except for the rebbe’s musar shmooze in Elul zman.
The point is that we have evolved into something that not only Moishe Rabeinu wouldn’t recognize, Rabbi Akiva wouldn’t recognize, and even the G”RA wouldn’t recognize because we’re focusing on the BEGADIM of the Torah to the gross exclusion of everything else.
When yungermen start learning, they learn with the belief that the focus on chutznius they were taught in yeshiva is leading to some big chiddush, and when it doesn’t work out that they progress like a gadol, they get disillusioned. Others progress in Gemara but they still don’t understand the big picture, and other guys can see that.
For this dor, one so insensitive and low, perhaps it’s time to reveal something of the p’nimius of the Torah, which naturally results in greater yiras sh’mayim and chutznius. This means going back to Chumash, Mishna, Navi, Kesubim, Sifrei Mussar, Midrashim, and a shtickle of the soidos ha Torah. Not just a day trip, a full seder of each, with as much effort as a Gemara seder, or a Choshen Mishpat seder.
If you restrict your learning to the chutzius and the b’gadim, and it doesn’t go any further, maybe you need to integrate a deeper level of understanding, and go back to the source to truly appreciate the gemara and the true reasons for livush and higher standards of living modestly.
It’s k’vyachol like going on shidduch dates with your wife for 35 years but never going under the chuppah.
The biggest problem in our generation is that we’re ALL learning the Gemara completely out of context of the knowledge it draws from, to the exclusion of everything else. Of course you’re going to get disillusioned, C”VS. Why should anyone care about a hat if what’s under the hat is lacking?
It’s simple. When a man is in BMG, he is surrounded with Kedusha and people whose focus is Torah. Before he goes to work, he should make a list (yes a real list) of lines he will never cross. Pick a job with a good environment. Choose a block where you can look up to your neighbors. Be smart.
Rav Shach foresaw all of this happening. He wanted that all recently (3-4 months) married BMG families should go to an out town Kolel for 4-5 years.
They will have less distractions, more shalom Bayis, wlii outgrow most that remain in Lakewood.
I am wondering what happened myself, and where is the mother of the kids who are watching the video all the day? Why is this solely a husbands responsibility? A lot of stuff described here is responsibility of two people. Maybe if women won’t have to go to office and see other women dressed fancy,in full make up and best sheitel, they could dedicate time to their kids and not give them to watch video? Things happen to women same way it happens to men. Where is a wife in a this letter?it’s not going to work,it is Lakewood changing and pressuring people. I’m working pt, my husband works, and kids aren’t hooked to videos at all. Stop thinking only learning people care.
Why is this even a topic of discussion? Like are you part of it? Like why does it bother you if someone else is living their life? People have become so judgemental and it turns many off. We have to accept everyone the way they are and stay on your side of the highway. Don’t worry about everyone else’s business. If you are good, I’m happy for you. If another person is ovaid hashem without a hat and jacket, hashem loves him too. And if someone else has a hard time wearing full length socks, hashem loves them too. Why don’t we first ask “how can we get all of Lakewood to stop being judgemental, full of pressure, and not accepting of other people’s backgrounds and choice of living” ? I guarantee hashem would like that question more than “why is yenem not wearing a hat to mincha”?. Think about it. Long and hard.
The answer is Kol Yisroel Areivim Zeh Lazeh. Klal Yisroel IS supposed to care about whether others are serving Hashem properly. Who are you to decide what Hashem is happy with? Only the TORAH decides what Hashem is happy with. Yes, Hashem loves every Jew, but that doesn’t mean he’s happy with their actions.
May I ask where in the Torah does it says not to be judgmental and full of pressure? I agree we should be accepting of people’s backgrounds and their choice of living, but shouldn’t they also accept our choice of living? Living the way the Torah says… to care whether another Jew is doing what he should be?
People need to stay attached to a yeshiva / serious chabura with Rabbeim. I started working when I got married. B”H staying connected to my yeshiva saved me from these issues. I’m from way out of town, so I wouldn’t know if this is even possible in Lakewood with the stigma of “working”.
TLS,what is the point of all these letters? Just so that everyone can give off some steam in the comment section? I bet you Noone is going to make a life change based on all these letters! Our tuition won’t go down, our kids will not have less off between camp and school, people won’t stop shopping where there’s pritzus, camps won’t stop giving out their paraphernalia….. etc…. what is the point of all these letters? Any toeles?
ERASE THE LACE!!!!
Maybe I missed it but there’s no discussion here about a working frum woman’s office environment. So the husband learns, the kids are baby-sat by somebody and the woman works . No discussion ?
I think you’re describing a minority here. I see 99 percent of working people that Daven in a Shul still wearing hats and jackets to Davening.
As far beach resort and missing mincha that has nothing to do with system. It’s in the individual character
I hear
I think its a real issue. The mark of a yeshiva is not to create the student to adhere to a code of dress and external behaviors. Its to connect the student with their own real greatness and connection to Hashem. Yeshiva can get people to dress with a hat and jacket but can it teach its students to be a meaningful real yid? I apologize but Yeshiva has taught me that Yiddishkiet is about guilting yourself to be more fixated on the details. A yidishkiet of conforming does not last. A yiddishkiet of connection to g-d does. Many people got me to fixate on details but far and few between got me closer to g-d. That I had to do myself. So forgive me for lowering my standards on the hat I dont have time to be give the details 100% of my attention.
yeshiva did not teach you that. that is simply the lesson YOU took from what they taught.
there are 4 middos among students….. one who takes the ‘psoles’ and lets the ‘ikkur’ fall away.
if you would have taken the correct lesson, you would understand that the ikkur most certainly ISNT the external, but rather, what a person portrays externally simply shows where his heart is, and where his heart is heading.
Baseall uniforms anyone?
What happened is very simple he never had a Masgiach to guide and direct him !