I’ve never written in before, but I feel I can not be silent.
I know that Lakewood caters to all types and it is no longer a town of yeshiva yungeleit exclusively, however, something needs to be done.
I signed my young yingle up by a morah that I heard is amazing, loving, caring, etc. I was so excited to send. When I came to orientation, and drop off each day, I was appalled by what I saw. There is a mother dropping off her child and this mother is barely dressed. It would be less offensive if she came in pants. I
cringe when I see other fathers dropping off at the same time.
Morah, I trusted you with the chinich of my child. That does not just mean parsha. It includes everything he is exposed to at your house. Would you put on a non Jewish video for the class? Off course not! Then the children should not be exposed to pritsus at your school.
Please demand that parents adhere to basic tznius standards when coming to your house during your school hours.
Thank you
A concerned parent
TLS welcomes your letters by submitting them to [email protected]
I have an amazing suggestion for you, before you get out of your car, say a prayer to God to remove any indifference from your heart. Although I do understand you’re coming from a great place, I do not think that your little Yingele understands what tznius even is. He is doing Yingele things like playing and having a good time , from my observation on your post you the parent on the other hand, have some Shmiras Eiynayim work that needs to get done, go outside, see the world, you cannot control what’s in front of you, but you can control yourself, there is a large supermarket store in Lakewood that when I go there with my wife, we see people dressed as if they are going to a fashion show or not so appropriate, but you know what we do ? we focus on ourselves and our lives to better ourselves, it is not our business as to what others do, each person will eventually change for the better, the fact that you believe that by sending your child to a playgroup entitles you to the other parents dress code is insane. You are not entitled to anything, just send your kid to playgroup, focus on yourself, and let God do his work.
What an idiot you are. Chaim Putz
You aren’t worth anyone’s time to even try explaining the basic logic to you. There’s a reason people wanna live in a makom toirah and stand by it. You don’t get it? Then move out
The last I want to do is pin one neighborhood against another. But I think the following is a fair statement that all agree. The area directly surrounding BMG (roughly Park Ave- college and main St- County Line) is still pretty much somewhat of simpler old time crop. Its very much a makom torah. If you truly want your child to experinece that, I suggest you send to moras in that area. I doubt you will come across these non tznuis issues. Oh and the grocery stores are simpler in that area too.
I live in the BMG area and no, we are not immune. THIS IS A MAKAS MEDINAH!
Perhaps he is an idiot but your usage of the P word designates you as a bigger idiot.
Well said, Chaim!
Dear Chaim Perfect,
How come Peninah got punished when she was trying to help Channah??
It just doesn’t make sense!
The commentaries (Rabbis) explained it very nicely.
We need to be extremely careful not to hurt the feelings of another person.
Barely dressed? Please define!
Maybe it’s your personal chumredic definition of tznius that you want to impose on others that’s the problem.
Mr Chaim P, you are wrong wrong wrong.
You should shop in another grocery store if there are people who aren’t dress properly. (I’m not saying that’s the case, you send was not appropriate).
Mr P this is basics.
Were did you went to yesheever? You’re inglish is laughable
you are making litzanus and this is a serious issue, it has nothing to do with being yeshivish or even shomer torah. one who wants to live a normal moral life with basic shalom bayis must be intolerant of the dress and habits of today’s modern world. this common sense and many non Jewish people understand this as well.
A true chamor.
You literally just insulted a guy because two words were spelled wrong, very likely by AI interference(T9, voice to text, ect.)
All because you dont like what he has to say.
His standards are to much for you. (Brachos 7b “mi shelibo nokfo…)
It says am haaretzim would bite talmidei chachamim like a chamor… i guess in that sense your a Makir mekomo.
Ummmm….says the one whose reply is filled with errors…do you pronounce 50 as fivdy? Do you pronounce 60 as sigzdy? I can go on…
My friend, I’m a day older than you and feel it’s important for you to know that yesteryears גדולים, oh never mind, you’re smarter, you can look it up yourself.
Before you put your mouth in motion put your brain in gear.
I’m done
*Too…. ok?
I can definitely relate to this writer. I see parents dropping off in mini mini skirts and no sleeves. Please watch over all our children.
Lies! No sleeves?? Mini mini skirts? how dare you Exaggerate and denigrate a bas yisrael like that! Because we have an agenda everything is permissible?
No sleeves doesn’t have to mean sleeveless, it can mean sleeves above the elbows. And yes it is true, sadly.
There is such an entitlement mentality plus sinas chinam in this letter.
I am appalled.
I really believe you only remember the exceptions. I’ve never seen anyone in a min skirt dropping off at school.
I agree 1000%
This should extend well beyond playgroups by the way. And I speak from personal experience. As a small business employer, I ensure that all my employees dress in a way that is culturally sensitive. This is 100% legal if done in a fashion that is non discriminatory. (ie only one person, one race, or one gender).
Lol I definitely agree about the fashion shows that go on in some super markets.
Maybe women should start dressing like that at home next to their families instead of putting on a show at the super market
It’s a major issue. As a resident of Lakewood since 1993 I have seen this town transform in ways of growth Including chesed and torah that cannot be beat. The amount of volunteers and programs is outstanding. The growth of Torah and shuls and Chesed organizations is booming.
At the same time the gashmiyus and tzinius has become a serious issue. Stores have to be renovated for 100k ‘s dollars before it can be successful, houses and weddings that make people look and be jealous.
And tzinius is an issue. One cannot shop at a grocery store without being exposed to women who are wearing provocative clothing, no stocking, bare feet
For the one to say open your eyes to the world, we’ll NO. We need to keep our eyes shut. It used to be the umos haolam was the reason. But now it’s our own.
Our town is facing so many horrible personal issues in family life and our children.
Our children see how other adults act, dress and what they wear and cars others drive ( $100k +) as well as how much they drink and party. And don’t think your own kids don’t see.
Why are many young girls, some as young as 13 suddenly going off the derech and dressing with tank tops and so on.Why are so many boys going off. There are a host of reasons. But one is tzinius. And that is exposure from others who cannot dress tzinyus.
They emulate what they see by their neighbors, at events and parties. Why is it Normal to have over the top weddings and insane tzedaka or holiday parties with all the lavishiness in the world from liquor to hokas to meat boards to 20-50k tents and bands. Why is it normal for many business men and women who have to attend after event parties within their industries to make a deal. And I am speaking about business in Lakewood that produce as well as sponsor these events.
There is a tzinius issue going on both gashmiyus and ruchniyus.
And no I am not a full time learner.
Thank you! I couldn not have said it any better.. and just to add… sadly it’s the ones that don’t subscribe to the lifestyle you describe that in most cases are the ones suffering with OTD children and struggling children that to a big degree were affected by exactly the things you describe. Noone can tell me otherwise because sadly I have my own experience to back this up 100%. Some people are going to have a lot of explaining to do one day!
Why are young teens going off the derech?
Maybe because Lakewood is full of intolerant, judgemental, holier-than-thou people who display a blatant lack of ahavas isroel?
Maybe because people like the author of that letter and many commentators here just go by external appearance and do not bother looking at what’s inside?
Maybe they just don’t like the superficiality?
Maybe they don’t want to march in lockstep for the rest of their lives?
Dressing Not tznius IS OFF THE DERECH HASHEM as the Sharrai Teshuva states someone who is constantly “oyver” one avera is Nikrah Rosha and is chayiv because “kvar shavar olov oil malchus shomayim”
Wake up everyone & open your eyes, quit being in denial. Ask any professional who works with OTD people-“seeing a lack of tznius” or even (“technology/internet”) was NEVER the cause of any person going off the derech. That’s a totally laughable, bogus myth that is born out of sheer ignorance and arrogance. You know what does cause people to go off the derech all the time? Sanctimonious, entitled, & judgmental attitudes like yours, the letter writer’s, and other comments that are seething with venomous sinas chinam toward others. Check yourself first-thoughts like yours come from the yetzer hara. Yep, the yetzer hara is very clever & knows how to disguise himself to seem very ehrlich. You can’t control others. But you can control yourselves.
No clue who you are but sure sounds like you’re carrying around quite a lot of baggage. If any comments here are ‘venomous’ they are yours. Please get help.
I can relate to this writer. While we can’t control others a Morah does have an obligation to provide the proper environment for her students.
what a bunch of stupid replies the level of tznius in america was gone down the tubes which is why the “goyish” dress gets worse and worse NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Yes i am intitled to not live in Hollywood instead of brooklyn. and yes there is an effect on the child even if “he doesnt know what tznius is”
*lakesood not brooklyn
I usually dont comment, but I cannot be silent at this affront to one who wants to be careful with tzniyus for himself and his family. How can you so easily put down a sincere Yid who wants to watch himself in an area which has wreaked such havoc in our lives in the last 30 years?! His child is affected by unsightly scenes as well, whether the child realizes it or not. I have heard this from many gedolim over the years, greatly praising those that are makpid in this area. Lack of sensitivity in this area causes siluk Hashechina, and the ensuing tzaros that follow such a tragedy, Hashem yerachem. When burglaries occur no one says why dont you mind your own business and dont tell those who steal what to do- they are hurting us. So too, we are hurt in a larger way by immodest sights. There is a lot more to say about this.
One thing I will never understand about the internet is, assuming this is a real person with a real complaint, why don’t you approach the Morah and bring up the issue in a nice way?
“Morah, I trusted you with the chinich of my child. That does not just mean parsha. It includes everything he is exposed to at your house. Would you put on a non Jewish video for the class? Off course not! Then the children should not be exposed to pritsus at your school.”
I feel like people opt for public forums instead of good ol’ communication.
I would reach out to you directly if I knew who you were…
SO allow me to explain…
I look at the comments here to gain feedback on public sentiment.
Hashem created people in a way that we function as social creatures, thriving, hopefully, and effecting each other. (v’chesronam al kol ma shebarasa,.. lehachayos).
This website is one such medium. A sort of gauge, though surely not the most accurate, of where the broader frum community of lakewood stands on an issue.
And I must say, the overwhelming response of most here, in support of the letter writer, is heartwarming.
We are STILL a community that values the Torah!
And Hashem please help those who are harming and undermining that structure to please change their ways.
While I hope you are correct that “We are STILL a community that values the Torah!”, I can hardly say that 27 responses on the Lakewood scoop (or 26 if you minus your own) is a good represetation of a city of over 100k people, Bli Ayin Harah
It’s a real person who wrote this and I know because he’s my brother.
And how do you know that he didn’t talk to the morah as well?
He was just creating an awareness hopping that people will read it and be more conscious of there dress…
I sent to a morah who clearly spelled out the way women Have to dress (hair covered, socks etc) for the men in the neighborhood and for the fathers who pick up. I can’t say it didn’t help because I don’t know who would’ve come without socks and then did put on socks, but I can say that there was still gross lack of tzniyus by many mothers.
So, a morah requesting it from her parent body may not be fool proof.
Not fool proof is not an excuse not to try.
I work in a non jewish corporation and it is legal to have dress code standards. A Morah is providing a foundation for our children’s chinuch and should be expected to provide a proper experience in all areas of her environment. It is not just about what she teaches in her curriculum. A child absorbs everything he is exposed to. Can a morah serve treif snack to a child that does not know better? No! This is no different. A morah is not a super market as first commenter wrote. She is providing the foundation for our future of klall yisroel. And to those that say get with the times… Whoa to you! If that is your attitude, I doubt your kids will stay frum.
chazon ish says even on a very young child it affects them
The Morah is definitely responsible for what her students are exposed to in her class. This is foundations of our children’s chinuch!
to those that say, this is the new norm, this is our new standards, there is nothing you can do about it… IF Yidden had that attitude, they would have been eradicated thousands of years ago. As frum Yidden, if we care about keeping our children frum, then we must stand up to outside influences and that means non Jews and Jews alike that are trying to change us. Or you are no different then the Greeks.
So sad to see how judgemental the community of other yidden! If you think they are doing wrong as a yid it’s your responsibility to help uplift them and bring them back, but instead of reaching out to someone you try to have them booted out!? Don’t you think it’s special that someone who struggles with your definition of Frum is still sending their child to a frum day care? The community pushes out those they don’t agree with and then wonders why they go off the derech. Is you not being able to look away reason enough to push someone away from the community and possibly religion? Look in the mirror and realize what really hurting our community
Yes, you get pushed out if you cannot adhere to basic decency.
That doesnt mean we do mot extend an arm and offer a place. But while you are being indecent there is room for acceptance.
It is not about pushing out that woman, it is about a parent trying to provide proper chinuch for her child, which should be every parent’s first priority.
Playgroups are much cheaper than daycare. The mom in quenstion is possibly sending for convenience and price, not chinuch so lets not make this into an altruistic choice on her part.
This is one of the most well articulated responses I have seen on this issues. You also bring up a huge issue that I have rarely seen addressed. The issue of events, conferences and after parties. It is an unfathomable breach of basic tznius. You have ladies dressed to the nines mingling with men, alcohol flowing. Not to mention some of these events are out of town in hotels. How is that not a recipe for disaster. This is after these men and women spent months conversing back and forth on Linkden a so called professional social media platform. Someone needs to take a stance on this issue before its to late. Parnasah is not the answer. Hashem Yirachem!!
Also not a full time learner.
Was refering to Mo’s comment
I agree with this writer. It is not about not caring about others who are struggling with Yiddishkeit, it is about providing our young children with proper chinuch. Any Morah who is choosing to teach our young children, giving over love for Hashem and mitzvohs, needs to make sure that everything in her classroom environment is “kosher” or else it sends very mixed messages to the young child. She can’t choose which mitzvohs to teach about. In the upcoming parshos, she will teach about the Imahos and can pull a lesson on tznius from there and use that as a time to kindly ask the parents to please be respectful when coming to her school. Just like it is expected of all parents to only bring kosher nosh for shabbos party , it should be expected that any parent coming to school is covering elbows, knees and neck lines. A parent that eats cholov stam at home is still asked to only send cholov yisroel to school. This is no different. Parents can be asked to follow basic halacha when coming to school.
previously publicly posted about the event trade expo issue and got berated. i challenged all the owners to stop sponsoring the major healthcare expos and night events (most sponsors are Jewish owned and attended) and stop sending their employees there until they change the style of the expo and avoid the after parties. They should stop sponsoring the after parties and instruct their employees to not attend any of these after parties even if it means “missing out” on the deal. One of the largest employers in Lakewood actually organizes and operate some of the largest shows. the setup is to mingle day and night. the event is specifically not set up in booths with products. its with chairs and sofas. orthodox women dressing inappropriately and the mingling of male and females is not kosher atmosphere married or not. why isn’t there a dress code for all employees in and out of the office while on business. i have seen it.
I am almost totally out of the healthcare business because I posted my feelings and will not attend these after party events or expos that are not trade show set ups. I also do not go to local tzedakah parties that over spend in my opinion. not my crowd. not my tea.
supposedly the Halacha Business Conference in Chicago was specifically established with the help of a midwest employer to counter these questionable event.
I agree 100% with the writer. It is clear in Shulchan Aruch. U must go Darka Acharina whenever possible. Which would definitely give the parents the obligation to find another playgroup if possible. Speak with your Ruv.
A teacher can’t obligate the dress code of a parent dropping off their child. Who knows maybe the mother is OTD but required to send her kids to frum schools? I suggest working on your acceptance of others and their choices. Seeing people first and foremost as human beings btzelem elohkim rather than the sum of their body parts that may or may not be exposed. See them as a human being with free will, created in the image of hash-m. Focus on their neshama rather than their appearance. be dan l’kaf zechus.
2 points to you!! First logical comment
Yes she can she owns the business
Some of these answers are quite ridiculous and some are pretty intelligent. I am a male who currently works in the medical field. By the nature of my job I am often forced to breech halachic (yes, many tzinius issues are straightforward halacha) standards. Of course, all is done with complete rabbinical guidance. However, though a god majority of my day is spent being exposed to, “not tznius”, I am, as others mentioned absolutely appalled at the way some women in town dress. I only get one neshoma, and no matter how hard I work on myself, and how much mussar I learn, when I (my neshoma) am forced to view (not gaze) at what should be covered on another woman, she, (and maybe her husband) are 100% responsible for causing my neshama to become tainted. What a woman does in her own home, in her own private life is completely not my business. However, no woman has any right to be exposed inappropriately in public and must be ready to answer up to all the neshomas she has tainted.
I assumed she was the live-in delivering the kid to daycare cause mom is out working very early in order to support our holy Torah and her holy family.
Now that you let this go because she is not even Jewish – which seems to be Ok to Some – you assume all and every non zeniut female is non Jewish and you stop having those ‘good’ thoughts.
the letter writer who wrote about the lack of communication is so right.
how will we fix this issue?
by writing about it?
by posting this on social platforms?
woman should approach other woman in supermarkets and in school carpool lines and in these outlandish events and very respectfully say “the way you are dressed is below the standards of this school/company/shul/neighborhood/playgroup or wherever…”
why are people so weak stand up for what you think is right. open your mouth not your iphone!!
Please, please do not ever approach a stranger or acquaintance and say “the way you dress is below the standards of this school/company etc”. It is extremely inappropriate and offensive and will definitely not be taken right and will only turn the person off completely. A close family member or close friend can, sometimes, with the right guidance, say something.
I’m writing this as a yeshivish woman who is careful with tznius. Once someone approached me about what I was wearing. I thanked her nicely but was inwardly mortified and felt like my personal space had been invaded. For someone who isn’t sure she belongs or doesn’t always feel accepted, a comment like this could be crushing.
When dressing non tznius is invading my personal space. Yes you should be mortified if you dressed to such a standard that someone else a) noticed B) was upset about it c) worked up the guts to let you know about it. Oh and before i let you go Yeshivish DOES NOT MEAN HALACHIC OBSERVANCE IT MEANS OUTWARD APPEARANCE. there are many “yeshivish” people who wear less than the required inches on a skirt, and too long a sheitel, too smelling a perfume, too lavish a make up get up, too outlandish a gown, too tight a top, too flashy a pair of shoes, too lacey a sheitel top, too loud a conversation on the cell phone ETC. TORAH = TORAH HALACHA=HALACHA and YESHIVISH=MY EXPLANATION WHY I CAN BEND THE RULES AND STILL BE IN THE “BETTER” SOCIETY how i yearn for the days of youth of out of town life wear Yiddeshkite was taught with halacha not flowery terms of half baked ideas with no concrete way for life!!!!!!!!!!!
This is a pretty strong reply to my post but I actually agree with your entire message. Halacha is halacha and by yeshivish I meant real yeshivish/serving Hashem, not “cultural yeshivish to impress other frum people”. In my case, the item that was criticized was very very borderline, and almost definitely halachically ok. The criticizer was a sweet, extremely medakdek acquaintance who prefaced it by saying “I know you are careful with tznius so I think you’d want to know that…” and still I was offended. I’m not condoning wearing questionable clothes. I’m only saying that people don’t realize how sensitive a topic it is, and ‘pointing it out’ is not one of the ways to improve this particular problem.
You are right, that person really hit you with a pretty strong reply.
May Hashem Bentsch your entire family with the best health in the world. May Hashem send to your entire family lots of happiness and lots of success.
Good Shabbos to everyone.
A healthy winter to everyone.
Thank you for replying positively to my response, I actually though about it over Shabbos and hoped the hit was not hard. The first point was better to say in defense of someone coming over that when a person puts themselves in the public view they are to understand that they are exposing themselves to the public no we don’t live in our own bubbles(the mamar chazal of “hevey mikabal kol adam bsever ponim yofos is explaied by some to say that your face is a reshus harabim) and yes wearing something sub standard is my business as you are exposing me to that, and if someone worked up the courage to tell someone, then yeah maybe its time to think about it instead of “locking down”. The second part was not meant to be directed at you but came out that way, there is a mistaken dicotanry that says if i call myself yeshivish then im fine. the fault in that is all the things mentioned above. i apologize for any miscomfort.
Thank you Avraham for your kind words. And thank you Klug for the clarification and apology. Yes, you did come on too strong, but apology accepted. Your points have validity: that a person’s dress affects those around them, and if someone comments on another’s dress, they should take it seriously.
I AGREE WITH THIS WRITER 100%
DITTO!
Stop noticing how everyone else is dressed and focus on your own issues. Writing a letter here definitely won’t accomplish anything.
I AGREE THIS MORAH SHOULD MAYBE CHECK OUT THE FAMILY A LITTLE BEFORE SHE ACCEPTS LIKE IN SCHOOL
If I was a family that was a bit different, I would not want to be checked out before playgroup. Bad enough that I would have such a struggle to get into school, can you imagine how painful it would be to be rejected from all the yeshivish playgroups for my toddlers because I’m from a different background? On the other hand, I would make sure to dress 100% modestly, so as not to offend anyone.
I seriously can’t even get through these comments.
Do you think because you dress tznius or consider yourself “frum” you have the right to judge people or tell people that chas vshalom their kids will go off the derech or what kind of people’s kids go off the derech??
What is going on here!!
We are all yidden over here, each growing at our pace working on different things in our own personal lives.
No one has the right to judge another jew!
Tznius is an incredibly hard mitzvah that people are working on constantly daily.
You have no idea each individuals daily struggles so just please learn to mind your own business, look the other way and teach your own children that every Jew is on their own personal path and journey.
No one is perfect! Yes even yourself.
So let’s stop all this harsh judgment and be a little loving to our brothers and sisters shall we? This is the city of torah after all isn’t it? So let’s start acting like it and focus on our own personal growth process.
Perhaps we should as well start teaching tznius for what it actually means (not just chumras and scaring people with extreme externals and if not kick them out..(thats not always the answer)
Maybe instead we should focus on the beauty and meaning of what tzanuah actually means from the inside out.
Then perhaps that will stay and go into people’s hearts. 💕
Ahava is what makes change, not the opposite.
Judge?? This has nothing to do with judging. Don’t dress in a way that is offensive to those around you and you’ll get all the ahava you crave.
Perhaps, you my friend need to learn what unconditional love is.
Hashem doesn’t say if someone’s perfect then “love them like you love yourself”
We are told to love every Jew as we love ourselves-
so maybe you need to work on that mitzvah before pointing fingers at others Mr Seichel.
Ais ashar ahavta ahavti eis asher sonasa sonesi, EVEN BILAM KNEW THAT HASHEM HATES IMORAILITY and yes dressing substandard tznius wise is IMORALITY!!!!
That’s not how ahavas chinam works. The very definition of ahavas chinam is that it is UNCONDITIONAL. As in, not dependent on the condition of whether you find their appearance suitable for your standards. The n*zis didn’t make that distinction-when the Yidden make havdalah, the goyim will make kiddush. We need achdus now more than ever, especially in times like these. Regardless of how people dress or whether they meet your *standards*.
*standards*? Wow, so its not just about acceptance; you simply cannot accept the validity of the ‘standards’. Please don’t hide behind fake masks of ‘ahavas chinom’.
P.S. Not sure if you’re aware but the nazis didn’t care if someone was shomer Shabbos either. Is that also a ‘standard’ too high for you to accept? lol
Ahavas Chinam is NOT a Torah concept (or real) as per Reb Avigdor Miller, Ahavas Yisrael is.
I work in a very large out of town yeshiva. The rebbeim were getting disgusted with the way mothers were showing up at drop off and pick up times. The hanhala sent out a letter asking parents to be more sensitive to the issue of tznius. You know what the result was? Absolutely NOTHING! It’s like parenting classes; dysfunctional parents rarely go to those as they don’t think it’s about them! This is not about being judgemental, it’s about being mortified when my husband comes to my work or when a rebbe is doing carpool duty. Unfortunately, I don’t think we can legislate how people dress in public. We are not in Iran , we are living in golus and I believe many husbands actually get a thrill at other men looking at their wives.
Can I go over to someone that I know in a supermarket and say, sister you are being nichshal many men with your provocative way of dressing? I can’t do that, but I’m thinking it very loudly that’s for sure!
As a man, I am grateful to be in such a modest and upstanding community. It bothers me when women dress provocatively here, not because I don’t get exposed to this in the city or that I think it doesn’t exist, but because I am not on guard for it here – I expect people to be more sensitive of others. When 99% of women dress modestly, even a minor breach of tznius is harmful and causes me to be embarrassed because I have to suddenly look away, which causes these women to feel ashamed too. When I take the kids to school, it would be nice to not all of a sudden have a flash of bare skin. These women don’t understand that we’re working hard to guard our eyes and increase our sensitivity, and that when they dress this way, it interferes with our concentration and focus – it’s our nature as men. We want to refine our selves and not behave like animals, and your sensitivity to us would be appreciated. We really want this community to be a safe space for our eyes, and for the eyes of our children who model what they see. I don’t care if you have a nice house, a nice car, and expensive things, just please don’t advertise your body, it’s special for you and your husband, and when you’re old and unattractive, there won’t be anything else for him to like you for. You are all welcome here, every Jew is, just please try and respect the eyes of those who are here for Torah.
I’d like to direct this reply toward the women in question, who dress with less tznius. Please do not feel pushed out, judged, or unwelcome. We have great respect for someone who either comes from a less-frum background or has struggled with yiddishkeit, and is still living in Lakewood and sending her children to a yeshivish playgroup. We ask you to please dress modestly, in a way that will make everyone around you feel comfortable. You do not have to ‘fit in’ fashion-wise, if you prefer different styles, but please, fully covered and loosely fitting is essential. You might prefer to think of it as respecting the cultural norms of the community in which you live, rather than a frumkeit issue. Thank you!
I think the morah has no business telling the parents how they should dress nor anything else, except things pertaining to the child.
So, dear author, if it disturbs you so greatly, why don’t you yourself approach the parents you find lacking in tsnius? Do you want to hide behind anonymity? Don’t you have the guts to tell the person what you think of her? Do you want her to think that you are a nice person, and not judgemental as in your anonymous letter?
but the mother signed an agreement when she signed up for the playgroup, agreeing to adhere to the standards of conduct and dress.
I am commenting on the line “Barely dressed? Please define.” I would have thought the same had I not been exposed to exactly that. No, I will not define as I feel it’s inappropriate, but suffice it to say it was what you’d expect in Times Square, from a woman who was wearing a sheitel, no less. I was so taken aback and I silently thanked Hashem that my husband and sons were not with me. It was that bad. Sad, but true.
I know I’m commenting a little late just saw now… I wanna know is the above comments a normal thing? I’m a teenager and don’t get phased easily, but this really disturbed me. I AM NOT SAYING WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT, JUST SYING THAT TALKING ABOUT TZNIYUS LIKE THIS, IS IN ITSELF NOT TZNIYUS.
As a bachur you don’t belong here.
this is not about judging. Normal human nature is to want to fit in. There are plenty of modern orthodox communities that this lady would fit into. choosing to dress this way in Lakewood means you want to make a statement. And yes, A morah has a right to ask everyone coming to her school to dress respectfully.
Maybe it’s not healthy that we live in a community where there is so much pressure and expectations to fit in. Think about all the times I’m sure you worried about what people think of you. This type of culture prevents achdus and ahavas yisroel.
This letter is so dangerous and I’m really not sure why TLS posted it. This is the EXACT type of complaining that scares kindergartens/schools from accepting those who may not YET be at the highest tznius standard. They want to accept these kids and foster their growth into B’nei Torah but are terrified that this would cost them their reputation.
To the letter writer: there are so many other ways to voice your concern;the public sphere is not the place. I dont believe you have any idea what damage you have done.
‘They want to accept these kids.. but are terrified that this would cost them their reputation’ Says who? Did you hear it from the schools or are you assuming? Unless you actually heard it from them I don’t think this is true. The schools have standards that they follow for chinuch reasons; nothing to do with external pressures.
And I also don’t agree with your assertion that this is the wrong place to bring this up. This problem is way more prevalent than you think. It’s time to address this in public, even at the risk of shaming the perpetrators of these acts. These people obviously don’t care too much about being exposed in public. Hello? They ARE exposing themselves in public!
ALL schools and playgroups have standards of conduct and dress that are open to sign before applying for the children to be admitted. The problem is 100% when parents are dishonest in agreeing to these. The schools are answerable to their parents – largely the ones who AGREE to the conditions honestly.
It’s really appalling how supposedly Torah observant Jews are treating their fellow yidden. It is beyond disturbing to see….maybe this mother came from out of town and doesn’t even know about the standards she is not following? Perhaps she struggles with this one thing, but in all other ways, is very frum.
Maybe she didn’t want to move here but her husband did, and she is trying to make the best of it, and actually people aren’t so bad, and now she sees such a post and rethinks everything about Lakewood?
Maybe she is suffering from post partum depression or grief from a tragedy and is having a hard time with this mitzvah?
Or maybe it is none of your business.
Look away. Your 3 year old child will not be harmed- that’s just silly. They never see a woman who isn’t dressed with stockings and long sleeves? You don’t live under a rock right?
And you are a grown adult. If you can’t be responsible for your own eyes and thoughts, and must blame everyone around you, it sounds like the issue is with you.
No, the morah is not the tznius police, and no, not everyone dresses according to your standard.
move on.
How about some ahavas yisroel, judging favorably and all these other mitzvos you claim to follow?
Should we look and see what mitzvos you are failing to follow and post a public service announcement about you?
I think children do better when they see that there are many types of Jews and we love and respect everyone. That is true Judaism. Children who grow up with these attitudes turn into entitled adults who think the world must run according to them and what they want.