Hi, I hope you’ll consider posting the following letter.
Recently, there was a business conference held not far from our town, attended by many frum men and women. Several news platforms (to my knowledge, not TLS) eagerly shared clips from this event, highlighting it as something positive. However, I found something very troubling — and I hope others did as well.
In the videos I saw, frum and non-frum men and women were freely mingling and even sitting down to eat together. How can this be acceptable? There’s been so much discussion on various platforms about even minor issues like shared entrances for men and women at wedding halls, with many people expressing concern. Yet here we have frum businesspeople hosting an event where men and women — frum and otherwise — are casually mingling and dining together, and somehow that seems to pass without comment.
Imagine if a local wedding had regular frum men and women seated together at the same tables — or if a school dinner had men and women seated together without a mechitza. The backlash would be immediate. So how is this situation any different?
I’ve seen articles (again, not on TLS) criticizing male taxi drivers transporting female passengers or “inappropriate eateries” where boys and girls socialize together. If those things are considered problematic, how can such a public mixed business gathering go by without any Rabbonim or askanim speaking up?
Sorry, but this is not okay.
TLS welcomes your letters by submitting them to [email protected]
This isn’t a hard topic to figure out.
My guess is that only menuvalim write and care about these issues in public.
Really ???
I am far from the standard yeshivish woman in this town and these event have always left me with a general sense of distaste. I find the ease with which the men and women mingle, albeit to network, very off putting. It’s easy to call people names, but the letter writer is vocalizing something that many are not brave enough to say. Our barriers are disintegrating before our eyes. How can that be acceptable? It’s not like it’s one specific company where people work together on a regular basis. It’s a networking event, bringing men and women together from all across that specific industry. I’m not against women having a career at all. But the envelope gets pushed further and further with each of these events, in a way that I highly doubt makes HkbH proud of His children.
Hugh?…..
Feel free to contact me for an honest dialogue at [email protected]
My thoughts exactly. Only YOU were the one to verbalize it!!!! Kudos to u!!
Beautifully written and so many valid points!!!
Hope someone will speak up and explain!
and hoping this doesn’t happen again!!!!!
Could there be different halachos in a work/business setting and a social setting?
BTW, we’re there female there “balagalos” in der heim?
There is. If this guy cared so much about the Torah he would follow the rules that women were supposed to stay home and not go to work at all.
No such rule.
500 years ago women worked out of the house? Women are on the street back then? I’m not saying it should be that way, just asking.
My Rov told me I should CC someone when emailing female coworkers. Not sure where you’d get your idea from.
I agree. I was also shocked to see this.
But you know they’re from the biggest baalei tzedakah……. the same guys the rabbanim from the shuls bow down to and go to Eretz Yisroel with……
I agree with this. Its easy to criticize car service drivers etc, they’re an easy target but dont ever think of criticizing the health care moguls. you know, the ones who parade around with the same rabbonim who issue kol koras, and host parlor meetings etc.
At one point when I was hiring the secretary in a office that is mostly male, I had a question about the proper way to set up the office and still be properly complying with halacha.
The Rav told me something very interesting. There is bottom line halacha and than there is being smart about things. The Rav said “I end up dealing with the cases that did not go the extra mile and weren’t smart about things.”
All that being said let’s look at the other side of things:
I’m not saying that it’s a smart way to behave. As you can see from the way I started this comment. But I also don’t think that this article is all that holy either
Let me tell you a secret, my Rosh Yeshiva had mixed seating by his chasuna (as did most chasunas in those days).
There is no issur to sit with members of the other gender for a constructive purpose.
And 90% of the people at that wedding have no frum descendants
Not true. Don’t be motzi laaz on so many heilige yidden. And my Rosh yeshiva is very frum.
What ? You know this for a fact ? You’re motzei shem ra. That’s a d’oireisah, as is sheker.
It is easy to criticize. It’s harder to come up with a solution but I did it.
Teams of husbands & wives should be hired.
If a male & female want to discuss business opportunities they sit on opposite sides of a wall & call over a husband & wife team. The man speaks to the husband who tells what the man said to his wife who relays it to the woman. This makes for an easy exchange of ideas without any compromises.
Sounds like the game of telephone. Facts can get lost in the passing of messages.
Not true at all. No such thing.
not funny
The saddest part, to me, was that the frum women looked ‘to kill,’ long, glossy wigs, gorgeous clothes, while the non Jewish women were very plain and mousy and quietly unremarkable- business casual, if you may. When have shaitels surpassed in beauty natural hair??
This is so sad and so true.
The wigs have destroyed the modesty of our frum communities to the point where non Jewish women many times look more modest in comparison to frum women.
This is unfortunately so true. I’ve worked with non-Jewish females in the past. There is an understanding that if you dress glamorously- you’re inviting male attention which will be verbalized or even more advancements. In the Lakewood cooperate environment- it is standard for married women to dress as if they are single and seeking a male partner. It is a testimony to the HOLINESS of our MALE population who by and large endure the enticement denying the women the ability to personally experience this basic reality.
That’s not why they don’t dress the same way Frum women dress. The world today has accepted and made normal for people to sit in an office work place wearing jeans and a t-shirt. The world has no morals what so ever. That’s why the gentile women were dressed the way they were. Woulde you let your wife go out dressed like she’s about to scrub the bathroom?
It’s true. In the world, if a woman dresses glamorously it means she is calling for attention. It seems like some frum ladies are totally clueless about the messages they give off.
The Yetzer Hara to LOOK GOOD outside the home instead of channeling that feminine need into the privacy of a Jewish home- is what doesn’t allow the internalization of what they hear, see, and know instinctively, but seem be clueless about. But, being the source of arousel for men to commit an Avaira that Kabbalistic sources cite as the primary reason for the prolonged Galus is no benign matter.
ALL MEN are the same biologically- either they are attracted to their wives and other women or are not attracted to other women including their own wives. Chazel attempted to separate it and were unable (Gemorah Shabbos).
Imagine a world in which married women dressed truly Tznius outside their homes and beautified themselves in privacy exclusively for their husbands. What bad would come from this?!…..how would anybody lose out?
The first step is for the normalization of wearing a transitional cloth covering outside the home in some capacity. The few women that step forward in making this a reality will merit to play a pivotal role in the bringing of Mashiach!
First start with our homes that look to kill while those of the umos are plain. Driving down an unfamiliar block, one can recognize unzere homes immediately. Then we’ll talk wigs.
Tznius in standards of living is a serious issue, but Tznius in dress is a far greater matter.
Ah the anti wigger losers have entered the room.
Feel free to email me at [email protected] for an honest dialogue.
I think the issue is that they were wearing shaitels. If they were wearing tichels or snoods it would be ok. Also why are you online looking at this pictures and videos of these women. Stop trying to control everything, some people aren’t on your level yet.
This is so true!
I think that many women look just as nice, if not nicer, wearing tichek or snood. While there is a legit issue according to many when it comes to shaitl, let’s not sound like women who wear tichel and snood all of a sudden look like homeless beggars.
If a woman is wearing a Tichel and loose fitting attire, her feminine presence and appearance are still highly appealing to men. But, at that point it is on men and within a man’s ability to act and think properly. The Halachas and statements of Chazel are referring to such scenarios.
Rabbonim sat with their wives mixed seating ( not dancing ) at weddings all the way into early 1960s. Enough , shaytels, events, etc. Stop whining against Yidden. Don’t impose your chumras on everybody else. Get a hobby.
I believe the letter write is just pointing out the double standards in the community and isnt trying to impose chumras etc
I don’t think he’s saying “this is not ok” about the double standard. I think he genuinely thinks it’s no ok
Frum women in the 1960s looked nothing like frum women today. Unfortunately with the current wigs our women end up looking like actresses. The wigs then were very unattractive. So it was probably not as immodest then even with the mixed seating.
Oh please, women can still be unattractive in wigs, long or short, and be highly attractive in tichels.
Correct.
the person didn’t even mention length. the specific issue is the very attractive, glamourous, natural looking wigs which are similar to the ones worn by movie stars. these are quite prevalent unfortunately and are not in the spirit of tznius
An attire / product that incites men to the חטא הידועה isn’t just in the “spirit of Tznius” but rather פריצות of the highest level- driving the Shechina away and prolonging our painful and dark Galus.
Says the desperate individual who lacks basic self awareness- Nebech (and you know it). You aren’t some Kedash V’Tohar but are in desperate need of a spiritual awakening…..
What about mixed seating by concerts?
What’s a concert? Is that davening in Shul?
Concerts are a choice who chooses to attend, a very different discussion. The discussion here is the spiritual decline in zones that are inherently intrusive- neighhoods, workplace, supermarkets and business events, areas and zones men are meant to function and operate within.
There’s something called halachah, while there’s something else called hashkafa. Halachically it’s possible there are no issurim happening, it’s a large public gathering therefore there is no issur yichud. Although the laws of yichud are more complex and a competent rav should be consulted for any specific questions.
That said this seems to be more of a hashkafik issue. So that boils down to the advice of each and everyone’s own rov as well. I.e. should I shake hands of a colleague of the opposite gender at a networking event(I have asked a few rabbonim this question and they all responded, you can’t say there’s a issur as there’s no חבה however hashkafically you shouldt do it) of course everyone, should ask thier rav if they have a question…..
Another example, many yeshivos and/or organizations have shabbatons. Generally it’s family seating, i.e. couples sitting together, all sharing the same buffets and/or amenities. In the afformentiomed scenario, most don’t take issue as there are Rabbonim there as well as the spouse, which limits yichud issurim(בעלה בעיר, אשתו בבית etc…..)
The scenario mentioned in the article while definitely not ideal, and up to most people’s standards, one cannot say anyone is being עובר הלכה per se, as is being discussed in the comments.
Lastly my immediate thoughts on seeing the event posted was why do it in Atlantic city if everyone is traveling from lakewood, why not just do it here….. and I can imagine the answer is that the mingling is hashkafically unacceptable here in lakewood, whereas there, the rabbonims reach is limited.
You decided that the only Halacha in question is Yuchud and then dismissed any Halachos issues. For a man to have thoughts of arousel when looking at a women is Assur Medoraiso and a women that facilitates it is עובר לפני עיור, another Daoraysl….
No women is facilitating anything. It’s not she’s being a zonah looking to take the men someplace?
So the men need to control their thoughts.
The initial thought is an issue- איסור דאורייתא….ונשמרתם מאוד לנפשותיכם, both for the man and the woman surely for לפני עור and maybe even ונשמרתם since it is a detail of ולא תתורו which is applicable to both genders. It is astounding how unlearned some people are to the most basic prohibition that invilve daily living. They post some skewed logic thinking it is words of wisdom, but refuted by Chazels that are commonly known.
Btw,
What gender are you?
1) if you are male- who exactly are you fooling?….
2) if female- how can you express advice from the peanut gallery that actually goes against the entire Sefer of the Chofetz Chaim Geder Olam, on this specific manner….
3 Trans?……
Kol Hapoisel B’mumo Poseil
לא תקרבו לגלות ערוה
Do not get close…
How do walk down the street?
The street is a neutral zone as is workplaces and neighborhoods. It is not a women’s clothing store. Any spiritual or emotional issue men face (or ensuing חטא הישועה) in these zones is in part on a woman’s חשבון. You can argue all you’d like….so says the Cheftz Chaim מפינו אנו חיים.
This is generally applied A. In regards to yichud, which is not a problem here. And B. Tznius,which is tricky as it’s both halachic and hashkafic, however if you find a halachic problem with this then you can’t really have men and women working in the same office together. As it definitely can easier lead to the issue you mentioned.
That said there is Definitely a issue from a hashkafik stand point. However everyone should tone down that they’re being עובר איסורים.
No one finds a issue with a boy and girl going on a date when the girl is all “dolled up”. Why? Because there’s a tachlis. But what do you mean just go out without putting in the effort…… if you do that for most people the date is Dead on arrival.
You have to be presentable in a work setting as well…. look I’m not saying you should or shouldn’t go to these events. I’m just being מלמד זכות I those who attended.
Huh? This wasn’t a Jewish organized event. The world doesn’t revolve around Lakewood! Yes there were a lot of Jewish vendors there but this was organized by (moderated)
If it’s not halachicly a problem and everyone at the event is ok with it I don’t think it’s anyone else’s business
R’ Jack,
What Torah do you know to express an opinion on the matter?! Yidishkeit ain’t no guessing game….Do you know a Mesechta well, a סימן in שלחן ערוך? Where do your opinions originate….your heart? That actually the residence of the יצר הרע!
This bothers me same as some shuls that men and women are not separate during kiddush on Shabbat. It’s not ok.
Men and women are allowed to sit together and eat together, it is mixed dancing thay is not allowed. Maybe learn the halachos before criticizing what others do. There is a big difference between boys and girls socializing and adults at a business conference mingling, and the problem in the car would be yichud which is not a problem at a business conference.
Actually the issues with the Taxis wasnt yichud, and probably isnt yichud, when they came out against male Taxi drivers, the story that happened was a male driver and female passenger ended up hooking up. That was the story back then. And if only mixed dancing is ok, then why dont we have mixed seating and separate dancing by weddings. So if its an issue at weddings and simchos, then it should be an issue here to.
Reb yid. Have you ever been to a wedding where the separation was not sufficient, or where men and women were on the opposite sides of the mechitza and or fraternizing in the foyer or lobby? If you haven’t, let me fill you in. Not everyone is holding on your level hashkafically. There are more “modern” or better yet “less yeshivish” people in the world. No one has a problem with them making their weddings as they wish(assuming the dancing is kept separate). Everyone’s got to tone it down a bit. It’s the aibishters kinderlach we’re talking about. The real issue here is judging others unfavorably. כל המוציא שם רע על חבירו אפילו נגאל באלף מניינין אין לו תקנה
Let’s not confuse אהבת ישראל with a total disregard for יראת חטא.
If you saw your bother blatantly defying your father’s will, how would you respond?…..
1) You would approach your bother and in a sensitive manner describe the enormous disrespect he is committing and wrath his actions might be causing (see Rambam beginning Hilchos Taanos)
2) then approach your father and attempt to evoke mercy on his behalf. See Mesilas Yesharim Perek 19……
We used to have mixed seating by simchos and separate dancing, it wasn’t changed because of halacha, and as for the taxi I’m just saying what the problem could be not that it is.
The socializing at a business conference where most are married, is probably a bigger problem Halachikally than the socializing between boys and girls.
No it isn’t. It is a public place, while with teens that wouldn’t stop them.
At a time when women dressed with proper Tznius you are right. Todays standards (Sheitels, tight cloths) are inherently proactive to men who are honest with themselves and aren’t in need of a urologist…..
Women are ruining it for themselves denying the opportunity of interacting with the Erlecha population…..
The truth is- the entire Sheitel situation is coming to an end. The next generation of Rabbonim who actually know what is taking place on the ground (or behind closed doors) will unify against the Koach Hatuma….
You know what actually kills, talking during חזרת הש”ץ, קריאת התורה, קדיש, not women’s shaitels.
How are you so sure?? Maybe both?
I wear a shaitel, but there are Shaitels and there are Shaitels.
The Chefetz Chaim states that a woman’s exposed hair can incite a man to commit the Avaira…….
Wigs are more attractive than natural hair- ask the fashion industry.
Open a Yomim Noraim Machzer…that Avaira is prolonging the Galus…
More stupidity, all agree that talking during the places I wrote is akin to murder, noone says that about shaitels. Sinas Chinam of the frummer than thou ignoramuses is what prolongs the galus, women’s hair is ervah a shaitel isn’t.
What about coming on time to davening? That is a very great area that is overlooked even in the yeshivish עולם…..
Can’t disagree. I try to avoid these events.
Curious what the TLS crowd would say about the following. I worked for a large company that made a training that brought in about 300 employees from all over the country. All the frum men ate together but there was one frum woman who either could join the frum men or eat with everyone else.
She ate with us every meal. tough call if it was the right thing but i think the alternative would’ve been worse.
She should have eaten alone.
In these situations you come for 5 min, (make sure to arrive very late) just to show your face and then leave.
It’s not one of the עשרת הדברות to participate in every event. Hashem dictates Parnassa. When I worked in a non-Jewish environment and we had such an event- I relayed to my boss (that despite their willingness to order from a kosher establishment) I simply didn’t feel comfortable participating due to religion / culture- he respected it and all was fine. Why isn’t that an option. Hashem HATES breaches in Erayos….
All these shady moral issues became legal and pushed under the rug because these guys are the ones supporting everything from chessed organizations to schools. So u gotta pick and choose which kol korehs u wanna peddle.
aloe it’s because of the lace shaitels
Hey don’t look at the pictures! You want to fix every event that takes place in the try state area?! Its important to be inspired, its important to make awareness, if there is something that can be improved. Clearly this out of the left field!
Where is your objective disagreement to the content of the letter?
When people have no argument they pathetically attack the messenger of the message……
Says the individual who couldn’t care less about what Hashem hates….
To be honest, I went to the Torah U’mesorah convention last year and ended up seated in the family seating dining room – where tables are shared not just by immediate families, but also by couples. (as opposed to the couples-only or men’s only dining rooms) I was surprised that the Gedolim present were actually seated at family seated tables! It hit me then that we small people think we need to push to be the most stringent possible. In reality, our job is not to create endless chumrahs, but to develop ourselves as individuals to behave the way Hashem wants us to in every situation.
I recently heard from a Rav that the phrase “Ein Ben Dovid bah elah b’hesech hadas” is referring to our focus on others. When we stop pretending that OUR avodas hashem is the right type and everyone else is doing it wrong, when we stop looking at others to point out, “That’s why mashiach isn’t here yet.” and start to look inward and do our best to improve ourselves as individuals, that’s when Mashiach will come.
It’s not within the spirit of the law to cover one’s hair with a glamorous wig or to dress in a manner that is, not simply pleasant, but attractive. I used to agree with all of these letters. However, the focus on others’ shortcomings has me wondering more about the writers than the issues.
Writers, are you perfect? Are these areas that you’re careful in? What about your bein adam l’chaveiro? Find fault in yourself and work on yourself and you may find that others don’t seem so bad.