Dear TLS,
I would like to thank you for recently posting several important letters from your readers regarding shidduchim and the ‘Send the Boys Earlier’ issue.
see the link here:
https://thelakewoodscoop.com/news/letter-real-changes-must-be-made/
What particularly caught my attention was the letter from the Gedolei Hador to the young Roshei Yeshivos in the United States.
Kol Korei re Boys younger from Gedolei EY only - Teiveis 2012 (1) 2
If you will indulge me, please allow me to describe to you and your readers the life of a father with multiple daughters in shidduchim.
Baruch Hashem my first daughter got engaged to a wonderful ben torah about a year following her return from seminary. My second daughter started shidduchim shortly thereafter with high hopes, but our expectations were quickly shattered. My daughter is a wonderful tzinusdike girl who excelled amongst her peers and went through the school system doing everything she was expected to. She went to one of the top seminaries where she continued her success and gave us boundless nachas. Yet when she entered shidduchim, we waited and waited by the phone, davening and anxiously waiting for suggestions that never came in. We met with shadchanim, spoke to friends and relatives to help us, yet she rarely if ever received a suggestion, let alone a ‘Yes’ from a boy.
This went on for several years until my next daughter returned from seminary. After being home for nearly a year, we were faced with the heartbreaking decision I would wish on no father or mother. While my older daughter insisted that her younger sister start shidduchim, my younger daughter did not want to, out of her deep sensitivity to her elder sister. After consulting with our Rav, who felt our turmoil and pain, and after many harrowing sleepless nights we felt we had no choice but to listen to suggestions for our younger daughter.
We are unfortunately still waiting for both of their basherta’s.
Until recently, I accepted this reality for what it was: There is a shidduch crisis and that is the will of Hakadosh Baruch Hu. The system, flawed as it may be, is the byproduct of our kehillos and mosdos – governed, endorsed, and upheld by our sincere Roshei Yeshivos and therefore, our existence and struggle within this systematic framework is purely a collective adherence to Daas Torah. And just as we, as a People, have encountered other calamitous events and periodic struggles throughout our history that are beyond our comprehension, so too, this is a heavenly decree, reinforced by Daas Torah, and we must accept it.
Then I saw the letter you published several weeks ago signed by our generations Gedolei Hador years back, imploring and mandating the Roshei Yeshivos – the very ones I had given my genuine submission and fealty to on the basis of Daas Torah, to make an institutional and foundational change to the system – ‘Send Them Earlier.’
I slowly realized that this flawed system and existential crisis is not tied and tethered to Daas Torah or an incomprehensible heavenly decree, but to the contrary, it is both a repudiation and violation of Daas Torah.
We can all agree, if we were faced with a life and death situation and the opportunity arose to ask Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv Z’TL, Rav Aaron Leib Shteinman Z’TL, Rav Chaim Kanievsky Z’TL, and Rav Shmuel Auerbach Z’TL, no one would consider relying on other respectable sources who themselves if confronted with such a question would most certainly defer and consult with these Gedolei Hador.
So in essence, all the years of patiently and faithfully accepting the fate of the broken system in the name of Daas Torah has been a farse. A ruse. An empty policy and platform.
We are here in fact, in large part, as the result of not listening to Daas Torah. Correct. Read that again. Not listening to Daas Torah.
I cordially invite the young Roshei Yeshivos who maintain and enable this system and keep their bochurim in their yeshivos until they are 22 years old before sending them to Eretz Yisrael to visit my home. Bring your reasonings, your obfuscations, and your justifications and sit across from my daughters and explain to them why you are allowing the continuance and perpetration of this generational calamity and damage. Tell them your shiur for the extra year or two is more important. Tell it to their tear-stained faces.
If this were their daughters, sitting and waiting – desperate, pained, and afraid – would they not move heaven and earth to make changes to the system and ease the burden?
I know that the Roshei Yeshivos likely do not read this forum, and I therefore ask anyone who reads this: Help my daughter’s voices be heard. Be the chorus for all the daughters. We must continue to present, clamor, pressure, and demand the change from each and every responsible stakeholder – Send Them Earlier!
As the Gedolei Hador wrote in the letter you published, it is assur for anyone who can help to stand passively by. All yidden are responsible for one another and the Torah commands us, “Lo Sa’amod al Dam Rei’echa!”
There are unquestionably countless other pieces to the shidduch puzzle, dozens of ideas, and incredible people and initiatives at the fore – and sometimes there are differing opinions or schools of thought on the pathway forward for any number of them.
But on this issue – the need to send the boys earlier – there can be no doubt or divergence, no sliver of daylight to the mandate, and no room for maneuvering or subjective opining – for Daas Torah has already spoken.
This letter is so on target!!!! The Gedolei HaDor were so right!!! Every day that goes by without rectifying this terrible situation is a Chillul Hashem and defying the words of our Gedolim. We cant afford to have any more Karbanos…. Enough is Enough.
This is such a tragic situation. So much Tzaar. Yet there are steps that we can take to change it. As the letter of the Gedolim say. Besides sending the Bochurim to Israel younger, we have to start marrying them off younger. Anything possible to do that such as cutting out fourth year Bais Midrash, eliminating the Freezer policies are necessary to put things back the healthy way they were not so many years ago.
I just have one question, which I am honestly trying to understand.
AT the end of the day, a boys are listening to their PARENTS!
The PARENTS are the ones sending them to the so called “young” Roshei Yeshiva.
The PARENTS are the ones who call the shadchanim and say, “my son is ready”.
And the PARENTS are the ones who can sit a bachur down as he reaches 18 and explain to their son that they have the next 2 years to learn and prepare for marriage!
These Roshei Yeshiva are not acting in a vacuum!
My thought is maybe people look at 18 yr olds as too young, maybe they dont want to send 18 yr olds too eretz Yisroel, because their not ready…
But if that the case, then we have a maturity issue, not a “young Rosh Yeshiva” issue.
I personally asked my rosh yeshiva when I was 19. He asked HIS rosh yeshiva (who is not young:)
And he got an unequivocal no.
The point is, while it MAY CERTAINLY be an issue that people are getting married at the age they are. Perhaps there is a cultural issue behind that.
Is it possible that israeli bochurim have a different culture, where for them, in their yeshiva system, perhaps there is not so much a change of before and after marriage, with 3 full sedorim and all?
While American Bachurim, as a whole, do their “time” and move on?
Is there a difference in assumed responsibility?
In Family responsibility?
If, as the evidence seems to imply, these are true… Then we have found the issue, and it has nothing to do with “young” Roshei Yeshiva.
It has to do with the American culture, where guys are beheimos, and even in the yeshiva world, where BH the Torah helps us to gain some modicum of responsibility, it still is reluctantly, and lately, accepted.
Did the “cultural issue” change in the last fifteen years??? In a more perfect world not so long ago the average age Litvish Bochurim started Shidduchim was 22. What made Bochurim less mature in the last decade and a half? If it’s the parents they are setting themselves up for FAILURE if they have a daughter. When their daughter hits the market they won’t experience a deluge of phone calls as they did with their son.
In regards to the young Roshei Yeshivos I can talk from my own experience. They are all well meaning but there is an obvious conflict with a good bochur that is doing well. Should he go to Brisk at 20.5 or continue under the Rosh Yeshivas tutelage in America and send him at 22. For the Yeshivah’s consideration it’s better to have a good seasoned bochur in Yeshivah so it is probably better if he stays in Yeshivah till he’s 22. But as far as the bochur is concerned we all know that the last 15 years has brought spiritual havoc to Ruchniyus with the internet and other nisyonos which didn’t exist earlier. There also is a real calculation of the Ruchniyus of the girls. A staggering 10% of girls over 25 in the Litvish world is a real tragedy…. So to continue this downward spiral is not an option. Whether it’s the parents or the Young Roshei Yeshivah who have to initiate is not relevant. Change is necessary.
Yes Reb JJ
The culture has DRASTICALLY changed in the past 15 years!
Society went from having ipods with music, to having our lifes run by AI.
And the culture norms have shifted along with it.
We went from a society of respect for hard work, at least outwardly, to an open embrace of the “es kumt mir” attitude.
Now ask yourself, how does THAT affect a marriage?
Blah Blah. We are dealing with Dinei Nefashos here. To permit one Agunah the Node B’Yehudah discusses the Herculean Efforts to do so. We are talking about a few thousand Nefashos here. We have to look to make something change by the Litvish girls. We have to stop this slippery slope. No matter who stops it please agree structural changes are needed here
Your callous insult notwithstanding, you are missing the entire point.
I am not CONDONING the situation.
I am simply pointing out that culture is shaped by US, not “young roshei yeshiva”.
And if WE are not changing, then either the blame is ON US, or there is a deeper issue here. A reality that must be contended with.
If boys are not ready to get married, that can, r”l CREATE the very situation you bring as a proof.
In other words, “hi hanosenes”!
But to just point a finger at “young roshei yeshiva” is VERY VERY wrong.
Do you realize that we are talking about a few thousand living Agunos? There is nothing helpful or of substance in your comment to blame the parents of the boys. As a Kehilla we have to make changes with everyone in the Litvisher Kehilla to end this MADNESS. In my humble opinion when this plague keeps on spreading people make the changes. Why not do it now and save a few thousand Bnos Yisrael and be a part in creating tens of thousands of Neshamos?
you make no sense!
If you want to help, you must identify the problem!
You say there is nothing helpful to blame the parents… Is it more helpful then, than to blame “young roshei Yeshiva”?!
I don’t expect too many of the incoming 22/23 year old boys to be marrying girls aged 25 plus. Where do we find 1000 plus boys for them to marry?
There is only one eitzah to save the thousands of girls over age 25: We need to be mekarev an equal number of Jewish non religious single men for them to marry.
I have seen this happen personally. We need 1000 balei teshuvah to marry the older litvish girls who have no one to marry. Call Torah mates or Partners in Torah & specifically ask for a single man 22-32. I have seen this happen with my own Torah mate of years ago who now has a nice family with his FFB wife after just 3 years of study. Another possible eitzah is to get the mega gevirim on board to use monetary incentives to change the system. If the right incentives would be put in place, maybe change will happen BD”S.
BMG should suspend the Freezer for any girl age 22 & above.
Very Articulate!!! As an older single I want to commend the scoop for their Avodas HaKodesh. The letter writer missed one important point however. The Ruchniyus challenge for single girls as they get older is very difficult. Many aren’t able to withstand the Nisayon. The Gedolim saw that and therefore said better forego on the system that has been created the last twenty years by sending Bochurim late to Israel. We have to close the Lithuanian age gap and save lives. We don’t have this problem in Israel, Chassidim or the Sephardim. We have to make changes and listen to Daas Torah who see the ramifications of a girls Ruchniyus.
Have you considered why the guys are saying no? As a guy and someone who spent a decade and dated over 50 girls we give a lot of yeses but there are times we say no and there are times we all collectively say no to a certain girl. There are girls who have told me I keep getting old from everyone while other girls are getting yes. The expectations you have of my daughter is this and this and this might be your expectations but not based in reality or other people’s expectations. Sometimes you need to take a hard look at yourself and go who am I and what am I doing. Be honest about who your daughters are and what they’re looking for.
Dear anonymous mudslinger:
If you think for a moment that your read of a single letter put out by some of the major gedolim, is the be all end all of Daas Torah, you are sorely mistaken.
These “young Roshei Yeshiva“ who you are so eager to bash yet you are relying on to educate your sons and future son-in-law, are not just “winging it”.
They seek and follow the counsel of their Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva.
The guidance they are given is there a personalized down to each of their Talmidim on an individual basis, based on each ones needs and circumstances.
Hopefully your wife and daughters have learned to take the lead of On ben Peles’ wife and not to get involved in what is going on between Gedolim.
It is not a mudslinging article. I think 99% of the Gedolim agree to the Gedolei HaDor. Only thing I wonder is how do people sit silently when our Yiddisher Techter are being dragged through the mud…… 10-15 percent of Lakewoods girls are single. We can stick our heads in the sand (or mud) and do nothing. The Letter writer is just pointing out what the Gedolim said. I can’t say people listen to Daas Torah for everything. But in this matter which is Dinnei Nifashos Mamesh!!!!! We have to follow their lead. It makes a lot of practical sense what they wrote in their letter.
I have yet to heard one Gadol say the status quo going on is ok. They do want to make changes. Unfortunately the Lakewood community and the Litvish community (which I am a member of) are slow to act. There is a huge fire burning. We have to extinguish it. Nobody is condoning what is going on. Problem is we aren’t open to real changes because changes can be painful
shtusim.
The same peaple who are parents of boys are parents of girls…
Something is waaaaay off with these tainos.
These articles are great but unfortunately as a community we are slow to act. The young Roshei Yeshivos also want to make change. However unfortunately things shlep in Lakewood. We need a few Satmar Askanim or other doers to get things moving. Chazal say Shakdu Chachamim Al Takkanos Bnos Yisrael. We MUST make changes. I await the people without hearts to start blaming the father who wrote the article, his daughters and everyone besides us as a Kehillah. A joint effort of change is an obligation on every one of us.
Firstly I fell your pain .Just know there are many older boys suffering as well.I personally know many good older boys suffering as well .
One thing is clear and NO ONE ARUGES! changes in the shidduch system need to be made and needed to have been made for a long time. We need more and more people like yourself to speak up and do ANYTHING possible till people in positions to implement them do so . I feel your pain and understand how you feel .Im glad you took a step to write a letter .Continue to do anything and everything you possibly can which i do as well to see that changes are made. you are fighting for the sake of THOUSANDS of BOYS AND girls suffering due to our shidduch system . The blaming Hashem is absolutely crucket thinking its like telling a poor person go to hashem or a couple struggling with fertility we dont need bonay olem just go to hashem . HASHEM TOLD US TO HELP ONE ANOTER ! NOT TO STAND ON “THE BLOOD OF YOUR BROTHER” and so many other mitzvos which clearly state to DO FOR THE SAKE OF OTHERS . YOU DONT TELL THOUDANDS OF YOUR FELLOW JEWS SUFFERING “HASHEM” BITCHON EMUNHA . do we not give tzedukha?! do we not have hatzloha chavarim bonay olem???? so why here do people tell THOUSANDS of ppl “hashem”.
keep demanding changes !!! TZIKU LMITZVOS!
Enough of the man made suffering. Our Gedolim have spoken (unfortunately we are not listening). END OF STORY!!!!
to all those who may comment what about das torah when comes to internet ?shaving? smartphones? etc? that not the point necessarily. this father is in pain along with thousands literarily thousands .we all know changes need to be made pieord . so start them already is all
Rav Elya Ber said several times that those who can make more changes to the Litvish Shidduch system and don’t are violating the passuk in Devarim 21:7 “Our hands have not shed this blood, neither have our eyes seen it”. It is incumbent on all of us TOGETHER to make changes to this corroded Shidduch system.
I doubt that R Elya Ber would agree to send the bochurim to E”Y earlier. In order to produce a good solid bochur, who will grow to be a leader of his household, a bochur needs to spend a certain amount of time by his Rebbe. In order for a bochur to be Koineh a Rebbe and consider him a “Malach HaShem Tvokos,” he needs to spend serious time learning by his Rebbe. Some need more, some need less.
You won’t find any of the Ziknei Rosh HaYeshiva in America agreeing to this.
You can’t dictate when a bochur is ready to get married. It’s not like a driver’s license; once you hit the age, you can get one.
The Roshei Yeshivah they are getting a Kesher with all got married when they were 22….. that was the norm when they were dating. Perhaps the bochur may go up a few notches (not according the the letter above of the Gedolei HaDor) but even if he does. Is that worth sacrificing 10% of the Bnos Yisrael??? The Gedolei HaDor said clearly it is NOT!
Instead of doubting what rav elya ber said why dont you actually listen to what he said?? In this video he explicitly said that bchurim should get married younger http://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?v=169104
I know personally that r elya ber chose a young bochur for his granddaughter, before the guy went to e”y and then after the chasuna he went to learn in e”y.
Bad Optics, this interview.
Gives the viewer too much to doubt!
Should have been done from Reb Wachtfogel’s own office, and not in the Agudah office, to convey that he is not being influence by an organization.
Should also have been only Reb Wachtfogel himself talking about his own findings and solutions, instead of sitting together with billionaire, to demonstrate that he is not being bought.
R’ Elya Ber is clearly against the notion of bochurim going to EY.
He is using the age gap campaign as a way to end this meshugas.
if someone is learning here and can learn better in Eretz Yisroel that is lechatchila for sure so why don’t you reserve your comments to what is within our community’s framework and maybe you can join a kiddush club where you can share your issues with people like you who also have their own issues to share with you!
The tzaar is real.
And as someone that spent several years in shidduchim myself with almost no “yes” from boys I feel the pain.
But I have one correction. A crucial life altering realization.
If we all learn Shaar Bitachon (I highly recommend joining a daily message or learning it with a friend) we will come to the absolute realization that NOBODY is at fault for shidduchim or anything else.
We need to realize that Hakadosh Baruch Hu runs this world and cares very much about each one of us. People are puppets. There is not one person that has the ability to cause anything. We can alter things with tefilos and zechusim. But my actions or someone else’s actions on the right or wrong way to do the system will not affect a ki Hu zeh of the shidduch crisis if it is not the will of Hashem for the shidduch to come.
Yes we need to listen to days torah.
Yes we need to suggest shidduchim.
Yes people need to stop being idiots in the selection process of who they go out with and the stupidity they say no to.
But at the end of the day not a thing me or you do is what is the cause of what will take away the crisis.
Our complete concentration and focus on that Hashem is the ONLY ONE to rely on for the answer is the only thing that causes the yeshua.
I’m gonna get flack for this comment. And I Don mean to invalidate anyone’s pain because I have myself been through all types of pain and more.
But all I can say is that since I’ve discovered this reality and emes of what Hashem wants from us I have seen yeshua after yeshua come to my life.
That said – we have an achrayus to do our part. To listen to days torah. To red shidduchim. To be mentchlech and to do what is best and try to help people and “stop” bad things.
But don’t forget that REALLY we have absolutely no power in our hands and only “Yishtabach Shemo” as R’ Michael Safdieh refers to Him can control any of these matters.
May Hashem bring your daughters their zivugim keheref Ha’ayin and forget about what other ppl can do abt it. Let them come running for your girls!
Do you only rely on Hashem when it comes to Parnassah?? We all understand that Hishtadlus is necessary. By Shidduchim, Hishtadlus is also necessary…… first Hishtadlus needed is to make the changes and undo the left turn we made twenty years ago. This Shidduch crises is snowballing out of control.
Great… so lets get rid of Bonei Olam, RCCS, Chai Lifeline and of course Hatzalah. Just learn Shaar Bitachon.
the individuals themselves need to be mischazek in bitachon but anyone who is a bystander has a separate obligation to do whatever possible save those lives and even that person in the situation must grab any opportunity to be saved; so when the world is waking up and demanding changes in the system, which by the way seeking and demanding improvement is also a mitzvah just like bitachon, and now Bitachon requires everyone together to reach up for that opportunity to fix the system once and for all and hope for the best outcome
Thank you to TLS for posting this. We should be Zoche that changes are made quickly. This wasnt a problem 20 years ago.
to my recollection it was talked about at least 18 yrs. ago. and probably earlier.
Wow.. so well written. I hope I’m wrong, but I doubt it will make a dent. It does help me however in knowing that I’m not alone.
Daas Torah is from our local Rabinim, and roshai yeshivos,. But if the issue is around people should have meetings with the local Rabinim and see i something can be done, or in my opinion people should become more chasidish and maybe even move to chasidish towns and hope for a better Chinuch. I’m personally divorced for a out 15 years I’m a good person and I very rarely have a name redt to me I tried and couldn’t even find any Shadchanim to talk too. I do have a beard and don’t have a job as I’m still trying to learn. And different jobs didn’t work out. So in the long run I’m planing to become more chasidish and move to EY and hopefully everyone finds their bashert.
I just read in R chaim Kanievskys biography about how strong he felt about this. He actually began looking for shidduchim for the boys at 17 so that at 18 they would already be set. He said that he also wanted to get married by 18 and he davened hard but had difficulty finding a girl that wanted him so it took him some time. It is very clear that this was also the opinion of the Steipler and Chazon Ish as well. Also the opinion of Pirkei Avos BTW.
My comment is awaiting moderation
Mine too
I know that this will not sound respectful but it is clear that unless the roshei yeshiva (and rabbonim) hear from each and every one of us, consistenly, no change will happen.
We need to respectfully apply pressure and make sure that each and every one of them fully understand the disaster that they are creating and the full achrayus for the calamity affecting thousands of bnos yisroel that they carry.
At the very least the RY need to stop avoiding the topic and come out in the open show our daughters that they care and are trying to do something. If they have other solutions that is okay with us but remaining silent is no longer an option.
Why can’t they open the Freezer a few weeks early this year?? Let it open after Shavuos. It won’t move the numbers a lot but it can help
How’s the few weeks gonna help? The 15 boys who will get engaged to 15 girls, can happen a few weeks later. It doesn’t take care of more girls, it just brings the engagement a few weeks earlier
This crux of this Problem starts way before BMG…
Before your 3rd daughter started dating you went to your Rav for advice if she can skip her older sister.
Did you also ask your Rav before you came on a public forum to bash the entirety of the olam hayeshivos?
I feel your pain, and as a father of young daughters I already fear the possibility of this situation. But there is no heter to bash anyone.
I believe that learning in EY for boys should be eliminated as a tool to bring down the age gap. However, doing away with 1-2 years of beis medrash learning across the board would be a churban hadoros
Who was he bashing??? He would’ve been fine if EY is eliminated. There simply aren’t enough Bochurim for the girls out there. Let the Rosh Yeshivos of the 22 year olds convince them not to go to Israel. That will lower the age gap as well
not the entirety of the olam at all!!! many many were never asked and if they would be they would first open the Shulchan Aruch before they would answer to be makdim ledvar mitzvah but not to eliminate Eretz Yisroel which has changed Lakewood for the better over the past few decades since the petirah of Rav Aharon zt”l and he would probably never have held of delaying shidduchim once the bochur is already back in the US
Why do you say that? They don’t have it in E”Y.
Sorry to say, and I mean no disrespect. the “young roshei yeshivos” are trying to help the situation. the problem is that their daughters are “guaranteed” shidduchim, and as long as they themselves don’t have “sleepless night” [not just “trying”] NOTHING WILL CHANGE!!
This type of cynicism is uncalled for & counter-productive.
it is not just this Rosh Yeshiva or that mossad, the entire process is not held with the respect that it deserves and this is total amahratzus, where we do get the best and only the best matzos and esrogim, here for sure the best shidduchim are dina degmara at the age of 18 and instead there is a degradation process which occurs over several phases and years first the girls go to seminary which is an unnecessary postponement then the boys anyway need to wait around so the reenter the world of immaturity and push it off even more and then comes hesech hadaas when they go to Eretz Yisroel and then when they come back like what’s the rush push off another few months because what’s the big deal and all of this together totally removes the eager anticipation of getting this done right and doing your best and instead a new and totally foreign aspiration has taken hold where we are looking to get the best instead of getting what is right and this causes people to say no for no good reason and other problems.
go to the 9 o’clock shacharis and yell about zman kriyas Shema, are you sure nobody missed it? when you are off to a late start you are signing up for some close calls or some missed calls.
why isn’t everyone rushing to be an earlybird in the shidduch process? this is your life your are talking about, are you sure you can afford to wait? are you sure your future spouse is ok with it? wouldn’t you both be better off together sooner??!!!
The younger Roshey Yeshiva have a right to decide what is best for the bochurim who are actually learning by then and whom they are in actual contact with. Insisting that they have to listen to Gedolim who they never asked for an opinion and are not the mora d’asra where they are is also stepping on the concept of Daas Torah and using it only when it benefits you. On another note it would be difficult for American born Roshey Yeshiva who got married older themselves to start insisting that their bochurim get married younger if they personally do not regret their own decision. The typical bochur today does in fact get married (slightly) younger than the typical bochur thirty years ago did
I commend TLS for bringing this to the forefront. Every Dor has its Nisyayon. Clearly this is the Nisayon for the Lithuanian Yeshivah community. Hashem YiaZoer B’Krov!!!!
I have a daughter in shidduchim, and believe me, I wish things were different, but for you to say that you understand everything is beyond ironic. The roshei yeshiva are aware of this letter. Obviously, there are other factors at work here. What they are, i don’t know, but you are willing to bash roshei yeshiva (and terming them as “young” when many older roshei yeshiva have done and continue to do the same thing is meaningless) to say that they should follow those who know better, without you considering that maybe they are aware of or have discussed things that you are not aware of. To lay the blame at their feet like that and make it sound like they don’t care about daas Torah is disingenuous – at best.
I didn’t see any bashing in the article. I think he was referring to the Roshei Yeshivah of 20 year olds. If you reside in Lakewood they tend to be under 50. I found the writer to convey the message respectfully.
Maybe they have a reason why they dont like this solution but they need to at least come out in the open and acknowledge the problem and show that they really care. Perhaps the girls should get married later but that too would be their decision to make and to instruct their talmidim with. They can no longer remain silent.
In the end they are causing thousands of girls to never get married. That is a huge achrayus and I cant imagine that any one of these roshei yeshivas has broad enough shoulders to take achrayus for such a calamity that will continue to get worse and worse unless something is done quickly
I can’t imagine the pain that older singles and their parents are going through, so I write this response with much hesitation and no one should think for a minute that I am not being “Nosei Ole”, but I don’t agree when I see these letters.
Of course everyone must listen to Gedolei Yisroel, but getting personalized Hadracha from one’s own Rebbe is extremely important and one cannot not make decisions off of a Kol Korei.
One more thing, that I want to point out, something that we all must take a deep look in the mirror when think about this and be very very honest with ourselves. I have seen letter after letter saying how terrible we are that we don’t listen to Da’as Torah. And of course I am not diminishing that truth that we must absolutely listen to Da’as Torah.
But I get the feeling that that argument of listening to Da’as Torah and Gedolei Yisroel is coming from a place of deep pain and frustration, and not necessarily from a place of truly living to that standard.
What I mean by this is, to all the people who complain that no one is listening to Da’as Torah, do you have a smart phone? Becase every one of those Gedolim, I am certain have said not to have a smart phone and yet I don’t see weekly letters about not listening to our Gedolim about having smart phones.
Once again, I have tremendous empathy and pain joining in the Tzar of the Tzibur. Davening to Hashem for all of Klal Yisroel to end this terrible Gezaira.
I just don’t like the blame game and bashing everyone for not listening to Da’as Torah and for bashing the Roshei Yeshiva for “not listening to Gedolim”. Although I do understand emotionally where it is coming from.
Maybe it’s because the roshei yeshiva see the travesties that happen to marriages that involve a bachur who was not ready or mature enough to handle the responsibilities of marriage- let alone a wife and kids. If we want our boys to be ready earlier, we need to start teaching them responsibility earlier- earning the $ to pay for their eating out habits, contributing to the cost of their expensive clothes and designer belts and shoes, or even better, teaching them that a yeshiva boy doesn’t wear fancy clothes, drive a fancy car, have their shirts pressed for every wear etc etc. our boys are not raised in a society that prepares them for marriage at 18. Don’t dare compare gedolei hador getting married early to what most our boys are doing. They for the most part are immature, pampered little boys at 17 and 18 who have never taken responsibility for someone other than themselves in their lives (having been in yeshiva all day into the night since 9th grade). The age gap is a falacy- the numbers don’t actually compute. Our society needs to change for this to become feasible.
Perhaps it’s the girls who are entering into marriages they don’t belong in because they don’t want to be in the unfortunate 10%-15% that aren’t getting dates and have a statistically hard time getting married. According to your logic why aren’t the Bochurim waiting till they are 30?? They will learn better and won’t be so pampered…… we are losing an entire Shevet of Klal Yisrael with the current Litvish Yeshivah System.
They’re not prepared be it 18 or 28…
My husband wasn’t young and sadly nobody taught him what a marriage is about and responsibility…. etc.
I know I’m not alone. I bet 50% of women reading this that married boys 23 and older are nodding.
True the young ones aren’t prepared. I’m just replying to the fact that sadly older ones often aren’t either.
As much as I sympathize with the letter writer having multiple children presently in shidduchim, I have to disagree. How would sending the boys to Israel earlier Or not at all have helped?
If a boy isn’t ready at 20 or 21 to get married , wha’ts forcing him gonna do?
And if the type of ben torah that your or my daughters are looking for are few and far between how’s that gonna help?
And if Hashem is the one that orchestrates the dates someone will get married aint nothing we can do to change that?
I have to just say this again.
Anyone reading this just pick up the phone and say a name once a month. It’s the only solution aside from tefilos.
Amazing!
Open the freezer for girls over a certain age, say 22. Those few months, where they will be exclusively available, will give them a chance to be redt to the same age boys who “just got off the plane”…. without requiring large-scale changes and without removing the entire freezer. To not do so, seems to simply lack rachmanus. Chasuve people have expressed their agreement to this….. Can we get this going? Seems like a win, win.
(Though, of course, I’m not saying that other ideas shouldn’t be explored simultaneously. )
bmg wont cancel freezer for older girls but why not after freezer only older girls for three months? some say it will make guys less willing to date older girls after that time but i dont think so…
I love this idea. Why wasn’t it explored and instituted??? Seems very equitable for all. There are more than 500 Bochurim now in the freezer. This would do a lot to help if this idea could be put into place
This is absolutely an idea that most be imlemented as a small first step. If there is anyone here with a connection to the roshei yeshiva please bring it up to them. You can have a part in hatzolas nefoshos
One of the 500 bachurim who now reside in the freezer recently told me that, to him, the freezer feels like a morgue.
He managed to make contact with me via his cell phone, which he claimed, is “miraculously” still working even in the freezer’s sub freezing temperatures.
He told me that a friend of his recently exited the freezer after serving his full sentence in detention there.
He said that when his friend’s family and close friends saw him for the first time after he exited the lethally frigid freezer, they were shocked to see him among the living. They made the bracha of ‘mechaye meisem’ and told him that when they saw him “enter the morgue”, they thought they’d never see him again.
Then they begged him to tell them “what it feels like up there in Shamayim”.
But he tried to explain to them that when he entered the ‘dreaded freezer’, he never really left this world physically, and that he merely became isolated from the rest of the world, both spiritually and mentally, via the “extremely cold and torturous ice box, known to all as ‘The freezer’.”
But no one seemed to believe a word he was telling them.
In fact, when he went out on shiduchim, the conversations always started out with, “What do you plan to do from hereon, now that you’ve come back to life?” And, “Is the shidduch situation any better in Shamayim than it is in this physical and material space we call ‘Earth’?” And, “Do they allow the bachurim to take leave and to learn in Gan Eden as soon as they get to Shamayim, or must they wait an eternity before they are permitted to go to Gan Eden to learn and to seek out their besherts?”
It took quite some time till the bachur was able to explain to them that the freezer is not the end of life, but rather it is a transitory stage where it just seems and feels as if one’s life has come to an abrupt end, when in reality, one’s life has merely been put on an excrutiatingly, toturously and unbearably long hiatus.
We must stop all boys from going to EY, regardless of age.
There are enough great Yeshivas in America.
Let the boys go after they get married.
For some boys, it’s a total CHURBAN to go to EY. IT’S HEFKER, AND ABSOLUTELY NOBODY IS WATCHING THEM!!
I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!!
something anyone can do: if you know boys 21 or even twenty, even if they are planning to go to ey red them shidduchim. even if they say no they will open up faster once the idea is raised and they get used to it. and they may then ask their rabbeim, most of whom would tell them to date if they are ready.
At the end of the day, even IF someone would help the shidduch crisis, it won’t necessarily bring these girls shidduchim, whom I feel for very much, faster because at the end of the day everyone has a designated time for their shidduch to come along, nothing will make it come any faster but tefillah
I am very unimpressed with your misguided bitochon and I wonder if you would say the same if you had five daughters in shidduchim
It is not I who says that your bitochon completely misguided, Rav Elya Ber says so http://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?v=169104
According to your reasoning that we should do no hishtadlus, so why should we have an organization such as Bonei Olam to help couples with infertility because to use your words ‘nothing will make it come any faster but tefilah’ and why should we have an organization like RCCS and for that matter Tomchei Shabbos, Chai Lifeline or any other organization to help out people in a difficult situation, because as you see it, it’s but tefila and nothing else. Well you’re wrong! It’s tefilah in ADDITION to all the hishtadlus one can do….
let the Litvak girls marry the Chassidishe boys. THEY are ready at 18. Real issue is that Litvish can’t get out of their own way and get a grip with the fact that there are other Jewish communities out there and that their way isn’t the only way and that no way is better than another one. boils down to gaivus and sinas chinom plain and simple.
How ridiculous to condemn a whole group that way! Do you think the Chassidishe boys are going to jump at the chance to marry a Litvish girl? It’s not an issue of sinas chinom. It’s just that they have different values and ways of life. Any two people with such differences would usually not marry. When we look for a shidduch we look for compatible people. I have no problem if such a shidduch would take place, but the objections to this type of shidduch would come from both sides, not just from the Litvishe.
Sounds like a simple solution but in reality, it’s not. Even a chassidish girl who went to litvish mosdos has a hard time marrying a chassidish boy so a completely litvish girl even more so. It’s 2 very diff ways of life and would be a huge adjustment on both ends and would take a tremendous amount of middos, giving in and hadracha so really not simple.
There’s a simple solution to the “Shiduch crisis” – simply get a da’as torah permitting every bochur to marry two girls.
so, you want two mother in laws?
I assume you’re not married. The logistics involved are incomprehensible.
Girls ARE getting married, all the wedding Halls are booked. Our askanim and gevirim talk to daas torah daily and follow their advice. Age gap theory is debunked. Writer didn’t mention davening and emunah. In Europe things were much harder and yet nobody complained and lived idyllic lives, my zaida told me he got married on a Friday to save money on a meal for the wedding and he was not bitter
You seem to be an arrogant, heartless and ignorant person.
Age gap is not a theory, rather its a fact.
Our population is growing year over year and there is no way that a smaller number of boys can marry a larger number of girls. No bitochon in the world will help that, although every individual needs to have bitochon and daven that she will be from the lucky ones to find her zivug.
Accordng to your irrational reasoning, we should immediately shut down Hatzoloh, RCCS, Bikur Cholim and Hospitals for that matter because in Europe we didnt have them and also since the stores and pizza shops are full of many healthy people, sickness must not be a real issue.
Rabbossai, our daughters are not being given a fair chance and we cannot and must not remain silent. Please reach out to roshei yeshiva and voice your concern and impress upon them that this cannot continue because we are damning thousands of bnos yisroel to remain agunos forever. Ask them to shut their gemaras and deal with this as it is of critical importance.
Wow could not have said it better. It is amazing that the overwhelming majority of folks can not understand this most simple concept.
The cruelty of some people is astounding. Also, the stupidity.
Letter writer, I’m so sorry for your pain. I’ll daven for your daughters.
Seriously????
Have you no shame????
We all know that 85% of girls are getting married. But Ken Yirbu. It is NOT enough. We have 15% of girls that there aren’t Bochurim for them. We set ourselves up the last 15 years for FAILURE. The Einei HaEdeh see better than anyone else. We have to make painful and serious changes…… let’s get going. We have no choice despite the 85% getting married we have to think of the 15%. Imagine this was your family member. Your daughter or sister. You would’ve had more of a heart than wrote something like that. Use your creative writing talents to write a respectful letter to the Askanim and Roshei Yeshivos and implore them to follow the directives of the Gedolim in Israel to START THE BOCHURIM YOUNGER IN AGE
Mabrouck.
Rav Elya Ber said this twenty years ago, and he also is against bochurim going to E”Y , he believes that every bochur should first get married then go to E”Y as a yungerman. I am not a talmid of his, but wish I would have waited until I got married to go to E’Y.
R Elya Ber doesn’t need my haskama certainly though of course he is unquestionably correct as is evidenced from the devastation that has been wrought on us folks who have not listened to him. Of course you honestly dont need him to tell us – only a degree in 4th grade mathematics to understand the math not working out here for anyone that cares to see it.
Perhaps the silliest comment yet. The illogic that peoples minds can wander to is astounding. The fact that girls are getting married every day say absolutely nothing about the fact that there are many many more girls in this parsha than boys. And dont tell me either about how many older boys there are in BMG because that is also irrelevant as there are many many more older girls. Please please use your mind when placing comments.
Just remember that for every boy that gets engaged, there is a girl who gets engaged! If we work on the age gap now, it will not work right away. It will benefit our great great grandchildren, and by then moshiach will definitely be here. The more shidduchim that are redt, the more people will get engaged. Forget the age.
All I can say to you is oy vey. You did not read a word of sams comment before you made your statement. To explain again- yes if there are 100 girls and 90 boys – yes all the boys will marry girls presumably and then there are 10 more girls who have no one so the statement “Just remember …” makes zero sense.
There are two completely different issues happening simultaneously.
1. Should bochurim be getting married younger
2. Do we have a shidduch crisis
I know many people in shidduchim boys and girls that have gone out countless times but did not get engaged for various reasons. If the reason is not enough boys, then why is it that these girls and boys actually have who to date. I also know quite a few couples where the girl is older in the marriage.
The letter from this dad is heartbreaking !!
But dear father, Im guessing you and your daughters would not consider me, being that I am only a gainfully employed working guy and not a trophy guy on par with a girl who attended the top seminaries and high schools.
No matter how good of a life I can give your daughter or no matter how happy I can make her, you would still not consider me. You need the
educational equivalent of your daughter in a guy, not a working guy like me.
I do sincerly hope you find the boy you need!
Or better yet: The boy you WANT!
Single Guy
100%. working guy been ignored by Shadchanim for years as I am working and had a troubled youth.
I honestly think the problem is there are not enough boys because the working boys are ignored.
can I try to look for a shidduch for you?
Single guy!
Thank you single guy for your interest in helping me
Recently I was introduced to a lovely young lady by a relative of hers so I am no longer available at this time
But for years I was ignored by shadchanim and would feel like the system was rigged against us working boys.
You know what I did last night after reading this letter. , I picked up the phone and redd three Shidduchim. I’m not a shadchan but I really feel for my single friends and will Bli neder try to redd more shiduchim
Don’t want to be a bull in the china shop, but all this discussion about the age gap is fabulous talk IF girls were simply just sitting…
While I’m admittedly not an official Shadchan but I’ve been involved in some and I also know some older single girls. Not once did I come across a girl over 30 that did not turn down a few boys for her “reasons” that when explained to others are not sufficient.
Recently I heard about another older girl that a sibling claimed was sitting with not even a call, so I thought, there must be some such unfortunate girls. Soon after I called back with a proposal, and was dismissed so quickly because…
Perhaps you would say I’m not being so kind, but when you’re demanding WE all CHANGE this and that and the age gap- numbers (which are far from proven but I’ll leave that for a different time) I will say perhaps change should start by the older girls. I’ve spoken to official shadchonim and they had the same experience.
It’s a difficult truth, but can’t be ignored.
I could not disagree with your comment more. The older single women I know are desperate to get married, and none of them reject shidduchim for silly reasons.
How about you respect their decisions when they say no to a shidduch? I promise, they have their reasons. Nobody wants them to get married more than they themselves do.
To the letter writer: My father is in a similar (if not worse) situation. I know that it’s incredibly painful.
That said, I hope the atmosphere in your home and the attitude you have are different from what’s portrayed in your letter. Your daughters deserve to have positive, hopeful parents — that’s what I had when I was single, and it meant everything to me. Your mentality should always be that your daughters will iy”h get married very soon, to the right guys.
Your daughters have their own very specific destinies that no shidduch crisis can impede. They have no reason to fear. Hashem made them be single up until now because that was His intention, not because His hands were tied by the crisis.
We must do our hishtadlus, but it can’t come along with a lack of bitachon. Those who are suffering can enjoy the serenity of knowing that their future is in no way impacted by statistics. Any other mentality is based on the illusion of this world, and not on the reality of Hashem’s power and dominance over it.
This letter is so sad and my heart breaks for this father and his daughters and all the other chashuva bnos yisroel sitting in their parents’ homes waiting for the right one to come along. I have no solution except to say that every major change was started by one fearless individual. Think Sara Schenirer and even more recently, the anti technology by R’ Matisyohu and Skulener Rebbe. I really hope things can change for the better.
If someone makes a claim that there is a shidduch crisis, I feel it should be substantiated by independent actuarys or people of that sort. .only then will I read it .
Dovid,
Rav Lopiansky said the same at the Agudah Convention.
He expressed that were lacking hard data.
Single Guy
just go outside and look around, ask your neighbors, start noticing, there are very very few older boys meaning 25 or older yet there are many many older girls meaning 23 or older and when the freezer opens in june the 23 yr old boys will be inundated with resumes of 19 yr old girls who just got out of seminary and cannot go out with anyone under 23 in this country… so who is looking at or looking out for the 23 and older girls??? who exactly do you have in mind for them???
what kind of hard data do you want? your neighbors are not enough? just start looking and asking around and you will be shocked and speechless! and then you begin to hear about the 30 plus, who never did anything wrong to deserve this neglect! who were never given a fair chance with the current system skewed in a way that does not give a level playing field.
Well said.
To whoever opens his eyes and sees what is going on all around him, the dire situation is crystal clear, although I will say that I did not realize how terrible it is until i had daughters in shidduchim. The current situation is that a good girl from a very solid, even baalebatish home, “alle maalos” will very possibly get “zero” serious shidduch suggestions, meaning not one yes from a boy for over a year. It is horrible and only getting worse.
To all those who keep on minimizing the situation I say that the day will come when you will deeply regret your irresponsible actions. יש דין ויש דיין
I wonder whether we could help accelerate the maturation of bochurim by giving them more responsibility, in shul, at home, in yeshiva, and bein hazmanim. If they have to earn their spending money, tutor, be camp counselors, visit the sick and elderly, lein, help non-profits, or have other responsibilities in the community etc.
Whereas I believe many view these things as undignified or a source of bitul torah, and not appropriate (tzi-gipast) for a serious bochur.
I agree.
I became accustomed to a more structured and responsible way of life which made me more suitable in regards to shidduchim.
Your idea is spot on.
Oilam–
letter writers keep comparing the shidduch situation in america to the shidduch situation in Israel…
Believe me, they have their share of problems as well. just different ones. I have heard pretty hair raising stories about bochurim being told that if they are a “Good Bochur” they are able to demand a shidduch that comes with an expensive apartment, the “better” the yeshiva, the nicer the apartment. Letter writing Father of single girls, I feel for you. But would you change places with the Israeli father who is trying to find a Shidduch for his girls and the reality is that you need to buy a few high end apartments for them too?
I cannot imagine the pressure the Israeli fathers are under, to have to pay for multiple apartments in order to marry off their 8-10 children.
I’m not sure about all of you, but I think I prefer our problems to the Israeli father’s.
I would be open to a cheaper apartment and not being entitled to the most expensive place to live.
What I love are the comments of being that are threatened by the reality:
“But boys aren’t mature” or “well those are Israeli Gedolim” or “shidduchim has nothing to do with hishtadlus”….these people just don’t want to meet the reality – that systematic change (boys dating girls their age) will mathematically lead to less single girls. Yes, any bystander is held accountable.
P.S. I am writing as a 24 year old bachur with no single daughters or sisters etc…
I think your idea make sense if the men were more mature.