The current situation in many Lakewood workplaces is deeply concerning. This is not about placing blame on how this came to be, but about raising awareness of what is currently taking place before our eyes.
It has become increasingly common for married women to present themselves in the office with a level of glamour usually reserved for special occasions. Wigs are styled to perfection, makeup is applied with great care, and clothing is chosen to draw attention. Many assume this is harmless or simply an expression of personal taste. In reality, it has a profound and often unspoken impact on the men who share that environment.
For women to understand this dynamic, consider the following scenario. A man you occasionally interact with at work approaches you, addresses you by your first name in a warm and engaging tone, compliments the quality of your work, and tells you how much of a pleasure it is to work with you and to see you. Most women would admit that such an encounter is unsettling. Part of the experience might feel flattering, since everyone appreciates being noticed. Yet at the same time there is an underlying discomfort, even guilt, in realizing that this warmth and attention are coming from someone else’s husband.
Now extend that scenario. Imagine that the same type of interaction takes place not once, but several times, from different men over the course of a week. The emotional confusion would be impossible to ignore. A woman would be left conflicted between enjoying the attention and recognizing that it is inappropriate. This, in a different form, is what men experience daily. Men do not require words of praise or warm conversation to be drawn in. A woman’s glamorous appearance alone is enough to capture his mind and heart. That visual engagement is not neutral, nor is it fully within his control. It attracts attention, it awakens feelings, and it creates emotional diversions that cannot simply be dismissed at will.
By the time a man finishes his day and returns home to his wife, his inner reserves have already been depleted. The admiration and excitement that should naturally be directed toward his wife have been given away, in countless small measures, to women he encountered at work. His ability to be fully present with his own spouse is diminished because what should have been reserved for her has already been spent elsewhere.
Our tradition teaches that Hashem Himself commands His Holy Name to be erased in order to restore peace and trust between husband and wife. That extraordinary teaching reveals the supreme value placed on shalom bayis and on the sanctity of marriage. How tragic, then, that what has become standard in our workplaces today does not promote peace, but instead creates distance, suspicion, and emotional coldness between countless couples.
One does not need to be a Rav or a community leader to recognize what is happening. The effects are clear to anyone who truly cherishes the sanctity of marriage. If one values the holiness of this most precious bond, one cannot remain silent while the mixed workplace quietly erodes it. What has been normalized in our environment is neither neutral nor harmless. It is a silent force that undermines trust, drains emotional strength, and weakens the foundation of the Jewish home.
TLS welcomes your letters by submitting them to [email protected]
Unfortunately, so true….
Men are faced with these conflicts all the time. They are bombarded by it constantly when out and about in this world. Be a man and deal with reality. It is not difficult. Unless he is a poor excuse for a man. Then his wife isn’t getting much from him even if she would lock him all day in a closet.
Typical interactions with the woman pushing a shopping cart is no comparison to seeing the same woman every single day.
That’s ridiculous. It is very easy to shift the blame onto others if you cannot exercise self-control or do not have the patience to work on yourself. If you cannot work in an environment where there are members of the opposite gender without it corroding your shalom bayis, find a new job. Stop blaming women for dressing well. There are many psychologists who posit that dressing well contributes to one’s productivity and success and in the workplace. Also, women tend to appreciate fashion and looking put together more than the average yeshiva guy. How about we stop blaming women and focus instead on married men and the inappropriate comments they make to women? Most women don’t have a deep desire to wreak havoc on the marriages of others and this letter is a real disgrace.
Apparently, either you didn’t read the letter or simply missed the point. Actually, when more and more men start making comments women might wake up. One need not be intentional about ruining others marriages. Driving a flashy car or promoting one’s life on social media will result in the natrual feelings of other feeling envious- even if that is not the Intention. But, an Eyin Hara is then real because if was created by the subject. So you agree that women feel uncomfortable with the comments but are unable to understand that men feel uncomfortable by the presentation of women; which is offensive to men. You outlook is not reflected is a Torah perspective.
This was prob the best and most truthful letter written here that ive ever seen. To be fair, the woman are clueless, but the husbands who send them off to work this way should read this letter!!
How many husband’s “send their wife off” like that. Either these husband’s ate clueless, or they have no control over their wife
You’d be very surprised. Many men think of this as a way of showing off to their friends.
Oh, is it already that time again? Yes, let’s once again blame women for the failings of men.
You didn’t read the letter, or definitely not the example where he explained what he was saying and how he understands the women may not have understood the difficulty without the illustrated way he explained it.
The men are as guilty if not more guilty.
As a woman. I believe every words is true. I’m appalled by the level of my fellow female counterparts in the grocery aisle…this is NOT about blame. Its an awareness…
Wrong.
Shame On You Halacha Requires both genders to do there part
Correct.
No one is blaming women, This is not a blame game at all. It’s just the reality that Hashem has designed the world with. And all this Letter writer is trying to do, It is to bring awareness to the women that This is applicable to. He’s not saying it’s their fault, But rather just asking them for their help. I don’t see anything wrong with that
All it does is make women more self-conscious. The world won’t change as much as weak and sheltered people think that the world works like them. It’s a wild place out there. A man is obligated to pull himself together to the point that these thing bounce off him. If he wants that result it is far easier than we think it is.
u Clearly did not take the time to consider the point of the author. It was request for frum women to help men avoid any potential pitfalls of a mixed workplace. Absolutely no blame projected
yes you are 100% right
Wow, so powerful and true. It will take some delusional creativity to argue with these most basic points….People, let’s stop and think before we become defensive and resistant. This letter is highlighting something so basic and understandable!
Why don’t the men start dressing with some basic Tznius? Halacha requires men to dress appropriately, yet they don’t.
In your world it’s all about externals. There can never be people that have gotten past clothing
No. I’m very anti AGshmiyus and live my life in a way that Lakewood people in their need fro Gashmiyus despise.
No. More ruchniyusdik then majority of Lakewood. I follow Rav Avraham Schorr on everything. Check his opinion on this subject. He also has many people with Shmiras einayim issues who come to him for Hadracha. So he knows the issue very well.
No, no such halacha. Don’t make up stuff.
Rav Avraham Schorr SHLITA says there is such a Halacha. Fool from Lakewood says no such Halacha. Toss up I guess.
Be a mature adult have some self control. My gosh. Happens in very non Jewish workplace. Relax there tiger.
“Be a mature adult and address problems as they start to form by explaining and illustrating to the other side what your frustration is” is what he did which is what emotional maturity is.
No. he blamed the women. How much cologne does he wear? Does he wear the latest tight pants? How about what color tie does he wear? Does he care how he affects the women in the office? NO. Because he’s holier then though. Just for the record, I’m a guy who has the same issues as everyone else. Hirhurim etc. first thing men need to do is look in the mirror and check if they are doing what they are required to do Halachily. Including our own spouse and daughters.
That does not negate the truth of hos point. Maybe you should write an article of men wearing cologne and tight pants. But the fact that men have this issue too doesn’t mean it’s improper to ask woman to also be careful regarding this
Well maybe if he was more Tzniusdik, the women wouldn’t feel a need to compete. Or men in general.
i Heavily doubt women dressing up in their latest fashion is due to the guy in the next cubicle coming with a new tiewomen follow their own trends.
men (Jewish or not) struggle with their taivos if you don’t have this problem then you’re to far gone or weer never in the real world. Either respect the opinions of those aware of the problem and grown enough to try and resolve it
No, he explained to the women what they probably don’t realize they’re doing to us and how horrified they would be if we did the written-examples to them. It was an explainer way more than a blamer.
As I keep saying, it’s a two way street.
Cologne and tight pants never persuaded a lady in the office to want to talk to him.
Really? how many women who have staryed with bosses or colleagues have you interviewed?
Really Leibel? Thats your response? And in Elul no less? “It happens in non Jewish workplaces so it’s ok in frum offices too?” Kedoshim Tehiyu isn’t just a suggestion. It’s a tzivuy that’s supposed to be a way of life or at the very very least a goal to aspire to and focus on achieving, not just saying “oh it’s ok, lots of people do it so we can too!”
And in every non jewish workplace there are crazy stories happening that is beside the fact that non jews are desensitized in these matters
So the solution is…..
To act like a Jew!
Who would have thought?
Correct. Everyone.
sorry, but you are an absolute moron Mr. Leibel.
I also have a few different takes on this letter, but your dismissal shows a deep lack of perspective!
Sure, your right, it DOES happen in every non Jewish workplace, and you know what else does? Does the term “Coldplay concert” mean anything to you?
First of all, shame on you for justifying a serious problem based on it being an accepted standard in non-Jewish offices.
Secondly, do you have any idea what truly takes place there?! In that environment, the effects on men are understood and the responses are welcomed and expected.
We are in delusion of what is taking place in the hearts and minds of innocent well meaning men and its detrimental effects on their marriages. If men would start responding, women would wake up….
The term used here “innocent well meaning men” refers to men who didn’t grow into being what a man is all about.
Their marriages suffer regardless of their employment.
I agree, but at the same time lifnie evier lo siten michshal
Which goes both ways.
I hate to burst your bubble, but your views are quite naive…unfortunately too common in the frum world. I don’t think you realize how common.
Not True. I work mostly with non-jews and a more corporate setting and their way of dressing up is far more simplistic than jewish women in our communities. No heavy make up, no styled hair, etc. Just to note as well, when working with non-jews its easier to keep boundaries because you know that us and the non jews have very different values and we can remember easier to take make ourselves “Heimesh” with one another. However, with jewish co-workers, one feels a closer coonection because you’re in the same community, you can relate to similar topics and ideas and one thing can lead to another and one can easily forget the proper boundaries that are supposed to be kept.
There’s no jealous husbands. No one checking them out for Shidduch purposes. They also don’t care to look professional. They wear cut off jeans to work as a bank teller, or customer service clerk. That’s much worse.
Wearing ripped jeans with piercings is appealing? For us Yidden, who consider ourselves cultured and dignified people should not even find that remotely appealing. Even non jews, who consider themselves cultured don’t get involved with people from these circles
We recently had a non-Jewish intern working for us, a very sweet girl. She told us that our office feels so safe because of the way the men and women interact (very professionally). She usually has to be very on guard and suspicious when working with men in the general population. I was genuinely surprised that she felt such a difference. Ashreinu.
Her feeling safe is simple. It is unacceptable for men to act on their feelings. But, it is destructive for the men and their marriages. A little logic and understanding would greatly help on the matter.
Maybe teh men should stop wearing such nice clothing, cologne etc. All of which causes women to have hirhurim. All completely Assur.
GD bless you for saying the truth
Here we go again… When life presents challenges, blame the woman! Be a professional and keep you eyes where they belong.
Get a grip
In my office the women are in a separate room and addressed as Mrs. Or Miss only. All communication is by email and phone only unless absolutely necessary. In fact despite dealing with them daily for 2+ years I don’t know who most of them are.. it can be done appropriately if you want to..
Very nice to hear. Just to quote you- “I don’t know who MOST of them are”. It doesn’t take more than one woman in the workforce to become a serious issue for a healthy man. So anything less than EVERY woman- is essentially risky……
A basic and objective assessment will confirm that the current workplace atmosphere is a breeding ground for serious Shalom Bayis issues R”L (heard directly from one of the most preeminent Baal Hagittin R”L in Lakewood.)
I’ll agree. All it takes is one…
Maybe if we stop all the crazy chumros that weren’t done until recently, all women will dress nicely for their husbands. To a guy anyone who is put together and dressed well is a issue. How about teaching frum girls how do dress halachic without guilt. So many extra rules that there never were.
Perhaps so. It’s still not an excuse for men to feel tempted by every well dressed woman. The letter isn’t about adolescents.
Disagree. People try to get their needs from other places if it’s not given to them. Unfortunately, there are many struggling men due to restriction. This makes them want something they are not getting.
Mans struggles have almost nothing to do withwomen. If you don’t look you don’t see.
It takes one man who doesn’t want to follow the rules.
perhaps he has a sister, a neighbor, and two nieces, working there.
Good shalom bayis stands up to all kinds of hostility.
If our marriages are so threatened by environments that are unfortunately the norm throughout the globe, then what is the point of having shalom bayis to begin with?
Thank you for validating what we are all thinking, but what is too hurtful to actually express. We feel we are in competition with the women my husband sees in his workplace environment; it’s a horrible feeling. He’s seeing them in their best, on their best behavior, while we cannot compete with those fault expectations. I wish he would find something suitable in an ALL MENS office!!!
When your son is in shidduchim make sure to tell the shadchan that you do not want a picture. If someone asks you about a young lady in your neighborhood who is of shidduch age, I’m sure you will be happy to tell them how frum and tzniusdik the girl is. She never dresses up and wears make up. Even when she goes to work. She wears aplain long skirt and pull over shirt to work.
glad no one foolish answered this time that “men control yourselves”
You just have missed Josh’s comment above as well as one or two others
Because men do control themselves. There is some gender confusion here.
Some men do. Others don’t. Check with the therapists in and around Lakewood. The biggest issue they deal with is men with Taiva issues.
PLEASE CLOSE THE COMMENTS BEFORE THIS BECOMES ANOTHER BATTLE GROUND OF PEOPLE WHO CANT ACCEPT THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!
Close the comments because in your opinion the truth can only win if nobody discusses it.
Here we go! Here for the comments
100 %
It’s time that women learn what it means to be a wife and mother. She belongs at home not in the workplace… even if she is very modest she is still amongst men where she doesn’t belong.
And are you sponsoring their child’s tuition?
Thata’s the mans job.
In what century are you living in? You’re really reaching for the stars there girl. I 110% respect the choice of and job of the stay at home wife and mother, but don’t try to tell any other woman the weird stuff your preaching. We’re not cave people, it’s 2025. Free yourself!
Preach!
What is free about my employer literally owning several hours of my day?
Having to work is a curse given to Adam, not a privilege.
The Torah says it’s a mans job to take care of the finances. It’s in the Kesubah. 2025 isn’t a heter to violate the Torah.
Go learn kesubos. In this narrow part of the topic, it very much is the woman’s obligation of the kesubah to bring in some income.
Not be the sole bread winner. Help yes. Not 95%.
That does not mean women halachically cannot financially support their families.It just means the man has to have a plan. That can be relying on his wife while he learns. Please do not twist the Torah to conform to your societal views. That is a very dangerous road (reform conservative etc ).
It’s beautiful and desirable for a woman to be at home, but today that can only work if the husband is wealthy or the family has external financial support.
Most women that I know would love to spend more time at home but don’t have a choice.
100%. Women do not belong in the workforce. They belong at home. Its the ultimate lack of tznius for a woman to leave her home and go work in a office, especially with men. Its the disgusting feminist movement that destroyed America. And no, the fact that she may be supporting her husband to sit and learn does not justify it. If people are so worried about women’s Tznius, then bring them home and have the husbands bring in the income. No amount of torah learning justifies what is going on in the workforce now with women being so out and with men every day. Its a terrible thing
I’m just curious we’re is your mekor for this that women are ment to be home…women working isn’t a new thing you find in the times of the Gemara that women worked in those times too
women are part of society and they can be happy too
While I agree separate offices is probably the only solution. I don’t think it’s right to say every women needs to be a stay at home.
some women need more and want to get out of the house
Women used to assist with income, not be the primary or only income.
You just contradicted your comment above.
I would also like a source that the feminist movement destroyed America. I have plenty of beefs with feminism, but the history of America rising to be the dominant global superpower aligns very well with the rise of American Feminism.
The American dominance came as a result of a spectacular victory in World War II, making America a global manufacturing superpower. It is true women did take some manufacturing roles. feminism ultimately did not change anything in our politics, our production or our military, which are the source of American rise to global power just because it happened at the same time does not mean they’re related.Also geographically American is isolated with many natural resources
No it’s not. Its a Yeshivish thing. Send your wife to any environment and if she supports you it’s fine. That’s the metzios!!
Not according to the Kesubah. If you were taught that, whom ever taught you is an Am Ha’aretz.
You are completely wrong here. Whichever way you are trying to say. Learn something before you state the Torah’s take.
You’re wrong.
Another revisionist historian.
In ‘der heim’ women worked and outside the home.
They weren’t the sole bread winner. Today in the yeshiva world, they are the sole bread winner. It used to be they assisted, not did all the work.
I admire you for speaking up about this!
So wisely said!
You phrased everything so well.
Rebecca, what if the husband is in Kollel or his Parnossoh does not support the family ? Men can see women all over not only in the workplace. It is up to them to follow the Halachah and not to look or talk too much with women, married or not.
Did you read the letter? Sounds like you commented prior to reading it…..it is comments like this that highlight the resistance we women have with coming to terms with the automatic biological reality that is the underpinning of the laws of separation between men and women. Yes, embracing it will undoubtedly bring the guilt of dampening other marriages from the unconscious to the forefront- a very uncomfortable reality for us. We want to look good! But, it isn’t a free for all……
did you mean ELA teacher?
“Automatic Biological Reality”
Kefirah!!!!!!!
People can and are obligated to learn how to control themselves to the point that these things bounce right off them.
It is not the underpinning of any laws. Shame that you may be the one teaching them.
This showcases the scary reality of ppl thinking that we are immune to taivos. Taivos affects all of us. We are not identical mannequins that don’t feel emotional drives. If do not feel any taivos That is a bad/unnatural thing. To combat urges we have technology filters etc. one of these gedarim is dressing in a non provacative way. It is not a difficult thing to adhere to and will eliminate most workplace dangers. That is all the author wants
Halacha says differently. Halacha is clear, Tznius is equal for men and women. Lo Sasuru is for both men and women.So says the Chinuch. If you don’t know these facts, you don’t belong being a Kallah Teacher.
Tznius is most definitely NOT equal for men and women! You keep on spouting the same false narrative over and over which just proves your ignorance. Go learn the actual Halachos that you keep misrepresenting. Additionally, your caustic tone belies some chip on your shoulder.
That being said, Lo Sasuru IS equal for both as you correctly stated, but it has nothing to do with Tznius.
It 100% does. That’s why there’s an Issur of Lo Sasuru. Because it causes Hirhurim. Otherwise why would the Torah Assur looking? Common sense is what the Chinuch is telling us. Completely equal.
I wonder if the letter writer is a wife feeling the affects when her husband gets home.
As someone that has been in the office scene for many years before starting my own business – It’s true to some extent.
Although I was not one to dress glam as mentioned in the letter, there were and are many that come in dressed to impress, and personally I generally dress put together. I’d be lying if I didn’t admit that I appreciated the compliments and attention that often came along in my job. And sometimes I wondered about the wives of the men in the office who became so friendly and on first name basis. I certainly would not appreciate my husband doting attention on women in the workplace and then having no energy for me afterwards. Though I do believe that it is possible to have work conversation that is healthy too. Its just difficult for the menfolk when we look so good in their face.
A little while back I was introduced to a phenomenal email newsletter called Doeihu. They send out small messages with halachos and hashkafos to safeguard kedusha in the workplace and I actually learned several halachos through the emails as well as insights that I never realized before.
If anyone would like to sign up, I am not sure if there is an official link but I highly suggest reaching out to Doeihu | Daily Halacha <[email protected]>.
Good points, but how can you say “though I do believe that it is possible to have work conversations that are healthy too” when we don’t have a grasp on the male experience. Why don’t we leave it to men to relay what they are truly experiencing without needing them to deny and hide about something that is so automatic and biological.
As a man, I can tell you factually, men are the problem. We intentionally dress our best, look at our female colleagues, then complain and blame them for our hirhurim. I find that if I don’t want to see women, I look toward the ground when I walk on the street. I also don’t look up every time I see womens shoes near me. A man has to watch his eyes and be surre to dress Tzniusdik. A women has to watch her eyes, and be sure to dress Tzniusdik.
Ain apitropus l’arayos.
Everyone is their own watcher. it’s your Mitzvah to watch yourself. it’s not your Mitzvah to blame others.
plainly put you’re society biggest problem. I have never heard someone so confidently spout, something so stupid. Maybe you dress to tempt women but most men that I interact with daily( 60+) part of natural Hirhurim is noticing women. Especially if they’re dressed well to say it’s a fault of someone fell natural urges is wrong. It’s a problem to act on them. This applies to all genders. There for we should all just try to be as unprovacotice as possible.
I hear your point, but at the same time why are you working with ladies if it affects you?
It effects EVERY MAN!!!
that’s the point!!
Mens’ style of dress and cologne Affects every women as well. And men have a chiyuv to be careful of this as well.
Every wimp.
Fixed it for you.
why did you comment if you didn’t have anything smart to say?
Because you need to put bread on your table
Wow, what a true and basic reality. Saying, we want Moshiach requires us to actually “think” of a world post moschiach- non of this will be tolerated. We read in last week’s parsha about Shoftim and Shotrim- judges and a law enforcement system will be set up. Much of what we term “Kanoes” and extremism will be the baseline and implemented. True yearning for Moschiacb is about hoping for a world that is spiritually pure enabling us to live like true Torah Jews. Goodbye to a lot of what we consider “kosher”….
it’s nice to know you are yearning for mashiach. But at the same time we don’t know whose chumros and whose shitos will be followed. To project your opinion of what will happen is just that a projection.
This is the result of the feminist culture that crept into the frum world and the high money making careers now offered to women and the countless frum college programs being pushed onto seminary graduates. They spend a whole year learning about Tznius and Kedusha and then head off to college and/or work and are not adequately prepared how to implement the lessons into that “real life”. This has become an issue not only in one city but in many countries where bnos Yisroel need to go out to the workforce in order to earn money for their families. (Is it really a necessity or an extravagance?) There are now seminaries that dedicate a curriculum to teach the girls how to properly interact in the workforce. This curriculum should be mandatory in every frum college program and seminary. Most of these women are ehrlich and want to do the right thing, they are just clueless and need to be educated sensitively. The responsibly also falls upon the owner of the company to ensure proper modesty.
Correct. Due to some outside influence, we claim that all men are affected by a bit of makeup and then every single man will …..
The Torah wants men to man up!
Regardless of what women are doing.
Rabbi Gamliel Rabinowitz (Big Mekul) said that a person needs to daven every day that Hashem should protect us and save us from the yetzeh hora. Whatever your occupation is, and no matter how much you fix the world, you have to recognize what it is. We live in difficult times in the inyinei kedusha. You need to recognize that all nisyoson are not one persons fault, but all part of Hashems master plan. He wants our mesiras nefesh to keep up the fight to the best of our ability. These efforts to do the right thing even though the struggles seem relentless, is what gives us our zechusim for all good things, for us, for klal yisroel, for now and forever!
The letter didn’t mention “nisyonos” or place blame. It simply highlighted how these dynamics are ruining marriages.
But he didn’t mention how men cause the problem as well. That by default places blame.
The writer made it seem like this is were we find this nisayon in the world and nowhere else.
The point is- men are meant to be in the workplace. That is their domain- if you’d like to enter the male domain; present yourself in dress and mannerism that isn’t ruining the marriages of the men who work there.
Then don’t hire women to work for you. In Lakewood, where officially everyone is Torahdik, I’d venture to say the workplace is a female domain.
Not saying anyone is right or wrong but every man for himself must build that wall where it can’t be broken and you won’t have subtle interactions infiltrate your overall psyche if one is strongly focused on proper things his focus won’t be shaken by day to day inconvenience
(obviously I don’t mean that you can put yourself in harms way but don’t shift the blame… hatzlacha)
Yes, this is uncommon sense for a reason. Did you read the letter? Would give the same advice to a woman in the very scenario mention there- about being “focused on proper things”?!
Common or not, it is completely true and what the Torah expects from men.
The expectations for women are different.
Sorry, to all the feminists on this thread.
This is NOT a gender issue. It’s a GENERATIONAL issue. Men in their 20s wear tight pants at work that are not appropriate for Jewish men. Women in their 20’s wear beautiful long sheitels, makeup and stylish clothes at work – these should be reserved for weddings and Yom Tovims. They are also the ones supporting all the expensive restaurants in Lakewood and the “expensive” clothing stores for men, women and children. They are also the ones buying the 1,000,000 homes. How they do this I don’t know. The only way to solve this is to change the culture within this age group.
What are you talking about?!
men in tight clothes are not a trigger to women. A woman whose appearance is glamorous is triggering to EVERY MAN in that environment. Why can’t we come to terms with what is so basic. Women’s sports doesn’t have male cheerleaders…..I wonder why….women are “triggered” by interactions with men. Men are triggered by a woman’s APPEARANCE.
It’s a fact women are triggered by men. You might just be a chauvinist and think this is a one way street. The Chinuch states clearly that Lo Sasuru is a mitzvah that is for both men and women. For that very reason.
The Chinuch does say that guarding one’s eyes is a biblical violation for both men and women. To look at what?….
anything that brings an avaira closer!
Which is why men have to be equally careful. Equally careful not to cause women to be attracted to them. Dressing for work like you’re going to a wdding goes both ways.
I can’t make sense of your point.
You are correct here.
Perhaps I was too hard on you before.
More then likely misunderstanding.
Correct.
Shmendrick, for once and for all, no offense, but are you male, female or trans? You don’t seem to understand the basic difference between men and women….that is reflected in the laws of Yuchud, Tznius and Shmiras Eiynyim……
I’m a man who follows Rav Avraham Schorr SHLITA on these inyanim in particular. He knows more on this subject then all you Boich Sevaros ever will. Why don’t you ask him if what I said is accurate? Because like majority of Lakewood you don’t have a guiding Rav or Rebbi. A Rav or rebbi you talk to about anything and everything in your life. Someoen who you will be honest with and admit that the other tab next to TLS isn’t Torah Anytime but shmutz. The Rav knows almost as much about my family and I as does Hashem. Aside for the subconscious stuff, which only Hashem knows.
People mature slowly.
It’s important to remember that the men also need to be careful how they dress. There’s no reason the men need to wear the latest styles to the office. Nor smell like a bottle of cologne. Yes, men also have a chiyuv to avoid dressing in a way that brings attraction to them. Men have been controlling the workplace environment for a very long time, and they set the tone for things, including dressing to impress. Thje issur of creating arrousal in the opposite gender, like the issur of Lo Sassuru, applies equaly to men and women. Men created the workplace issue, and need to take the first step in undoing the situation. Yes I’m speaking as a man, who has to worry about my own hirhurim etc. There’s another factor here as well. Many of the women are in Shidduchim and people are asked about them, including colleagues. We’re the ones asking for pictures of prospective shidduchim, yet we want them to not dress their best when out of the house? Who do you think is getting the calls about these young ladies in shidduchim? Their mothers are being asked about their looks and dress? No it’s their friends and colleagues. The monster was created by men, and now we’re complaining. Not ok.
What’s your problem that every single time someone talks about Tznius issues and how it affects men, you always talk about tight pants and cologne!!
Even on the assumption that you are right with your issurim, it has nothing to do with the fact that men are very different, and even when they are trying their hardest to be a kadosh vtahor, there are still safeguards that need to be put in place. And every word written in the above letter is accurate.
( Very good chance that the men you write about with the cologne, open shirts, and tight pants are not the ones that care about their shmiras eynayim/hirhurim)
Feel free to write your own respectful letter about how men have t to dress appropriately
You miss the point. No one believes they do anything wrong in life. It’s always someone else’s fault.
This is a really respectfully written letter.
I hope you’re a writer in real life because you have a real talent for it.
Thank You. The biggest appreciation would be if we all take to heart these words and make changes. Everybody would gain. Somebody needs to start an organization for women encouraging them to channel their femininity inwards- towards the privacy of their home. Why is it so common for women to dress up for work but look disheveled for their own husbands. Chazkel’s words need to reverberate loudly…..אין יופי אלא לבעלה
I’m sure it isn’t easy to be a well meaning woman these days….as with the men…לפום צערא אגרא….
Its the responsibility of the company to set the proper vibe. Smart companies have already done this. Women are seated in separate sections. Separate coffee Rooms. Aren’t called by first names. No chilling together. Separate company outings for Men and Women. Anyone acting out of line is warned and fired just like if they broke any other company rule. Many offices have done this properly. It increases productivity. Unfortunately, many horrible things have happened when this isn’t enforced including to inappropriate relationships and divorce.
Women should also definitely not wear perfume if they know they’re going to interact with men! It is 100% assur
It’s equally Assur for men to wear cologne around women.
No it is not, that’s a ridiculous statement. I’m not saying your going to find a Rosh yeshiva wearing cologne, but to compare men wearing cologne to a woman wearing perfume when she is interacting with men, either makes you an idiot or you’re just being in denial. Men and woman have different chemical makeups. That is a scientific fact. Period. Men get triggered by PHYSICAL appearances smells etc, women by EMOTIONAL. Theres nothing to argue about with this. It is a FACT!
Arguing on the chinuch. Women are attracted to well dressed men. Men who exude appearances and dress it.
Not all women are attracted to men wearing cologne every single man is attracted by a women’s appearance
Not all women are attracted to men wearing cologne, every man though is attracted to a women’s appearance
Not true. Only men who look at women, are attracted to women they shouldn’t be attracted to. Women are attracted to well dressed men. Cologne is part of the well dressed mans outfit.
I know of a large Company in Lakewood that has separate offices for Men and women.
The Men are referred to as rabbi or R’ and the women are referred to as Ms. and Mrs.
I would say most offices in Lakewood refer to the other gender as Mr/Rabbi or Mrs. And if your office doesn’t do this, it’s time to start.
A near meaningless factor. If women dress glamorously, it’s an automatic draw for men- even if they’re referred to as REBETZIN. The Rabbi / Mr. Is more about women not feeling the emotional piece.
Having separate offices does ameliorate this matter somewhat.
As for the name calling? I don’t know if your right that it is meaningless to this issue because its a Harchakah and I dont think that the value ofthe Harchakah is limited to only “women not feeling emotional piece” it’s a Harchakah and any harchakah enable the Man to be alert to keep his position proper according to general Tzenius and not get too close.
Its like if I was baking a cookie and you forced me to make it square instead of round and that is how the cookies should look in my shaloch manos on purim… I would go crazy from that because I want the cookies to be round; making them square ruins the whole thing… But it tastes the same so square or round is “MEANINGLESS” no literally any deviation from perfectly arbitrarily round will ruin the experience for someone who is interested in baking as a hobby.
No hobbyist would limit the squaring of a cookie to a Svara and thereby say oh you’ll be fine.
So by extension if a person was interested and happy to work on being a ben aliyah squaring even one cookie might prove either meaningful or too powerful.
The same is true for any Harchakah .
Why do you assume Lakewood businesses do that? Because it’s Lakewood? Sorry, Lakewood isn’t all that.
Lakewood is precisely all that!
Never underestimate what a city built around Torah will drag with it.
This does not mean there won’t be difficulty and events and situations that will tempt people to be blinded from the above truth; oh, there will be many. Because we live in a world where the truth is upside down and fault is easily accessible while praise is hard to access and very heard to hold on to without it slipping out of our hand.
Why did the Tanah want to live in a Makom Torah over moving to a city where the rich would supply his every need?
Why not go to the rich city and build a new Makom Torah!?
Perhaps it’s because there is no no no comparison between a city that is built through riches and city that is built through Torah.
To explain, yes, the Tanah could build anew but it is still not a Makom Torah where the actual city was built on Torah.
Of course, a city of Torah can have rich people in it and have all kinds of people in it but the foundation of this city here was built around Torah with Torah. Was there money involved naturally but what was the central push for all Torah.
But in the city of riches even with the rich people seeking to hire the Tanah and o whatever he said the actual place was built upon success and whim and a career of riches now the place is a place of riches not a place of Torah.
Whereas in this City Torah is at its core.
Yes, the standards may seem different than they were 40 years ago but this place is a Makom Torah.
That is why Lakewood is “all That!!!”
I think there are at leat several, and a large, very prominent one in NYC.
Some thoughts about this:
Blaming your failings in שמירת עיניים on the tzinuis of women around you is unproductive. The women you work with are unlikely to change the way they dress based on your letter to the scoop.
You are shifting the blame to them and establishing a situation where the blame of your עבירות falls to other people unwilling to change their ways.
Additionally, even if the women in your office dressed and were נוהג כהלכה it is very likely you would still be נכשל. People בזמן חז”ל were נכשל בהרהור עבירה בכל יום and we do not find חז”ל saying that all the נשים בימיהם were dressed improperly.
It also a breech in מדת הצנעות to create endless discussion in what sorts of garments are considered צנוע.
What we should be more focused on is
1) Making sure you are makpid on the איסור הסתכלות. From your issues it seems to be that you are not מקפיד and therefore are בא לידי מכשול.
2) Making sure your workplace environment is set up in a way to allow minimal interaction with נשים. If it isn’t, I suggest you leave your job and find a more accommodating workplace.
If you genuinely want to change things you cannot leave the choice up to other people.
Excuse me, your use of לשון קודש is highly misleading. Somebody might actually think you are reflecting Torah values. So you agree that women aren’t presenting themselves, in an otherwise male environment, כהלכה, but take issue with somebody bringing awareness to its toxicity. You also seem to be confusing general שמירת עינים with normal everyday function that is inherently intrusive to all men.
in my experience speaking with men, it is actually the ones who trive to live בקדושה that take issue with what is mentioned above. Those who aren’t truly in the struggle speak about strengthening שמירת עינים- something unfortunately no longer personal to them.
Not really true.Every single person has a struggle with Shmiras Einayim. If they don’t, they just are in denial.
Well said.
On a serious note; If you are a man struggling with this issue I highly recommend taking Rabbi Yitzchak Silber’s course on Sholom Bayis available online bidrachav.org. Its a very small investment and will give you all the tools you need to be able to fight your Yetzer Horah effectively.
This isn’t about fighting a Yetzer Hara. This is about ruining marriages. What part of this letter is unclear?!
Did you not understand how the author translated it to a woman being engaged by men. Would you also advise her to fight her Yetzer Hara?
R’ Yitzchok Silber would undoubtedly be horrified by what is taking place in our workplaces instead of recommending his course. How ignorant are people these days?!
Wrong. Men are guilty for their own actions. Their own disinterest in Shmiras Einayim. That’s what is causing their marriage problems. If he’s that bothered, let him refuse to interact with the women at work in person. I highly doubt he’s working in a company that requires men and women to personally interact. Both men and women have a Yetzer Hora that they need to work on. The women aren’t trying to causehim any problems. I highly doubt majority of the women are actually dressed inappropriately. He has a taiva, like all men, to look. Just like women have a taiva to look at men.
Im in every public place in Lakewood includingbagle shops restaurants and offices. I have seen little to none of this.
The letter writer can be sure that he or she just created a bigger problem then existed till now.
You made got curious both men and woman who never gave any of this a second thought.
The woman who needs the outside attention, assuming she even exists, will now dress up even more , and she will be available to the man who needs outside excitement even more.
You only made things worse with this letter.
Who wrote this letter ?
A man or a woman?
Being too careful about Tzenius will lead to lack of Tznius; being too lax about Tzenius will lead to a lack of tzenius.
Somethings ins tzenius are given to a person to make a Shikul Hadaas while other things are Black and white.
The issue is when the balck and white become matter of Shikul Haddas and the matters of Shikul Hadaas become black and white C”V!!!
Balance is needed.
Balance is a constant.
If Balance is not a constant then all it would be is a Pole stick into the ground.
Balance is a little to the left >>>> no no a little to the Right >>>>> No no a little to the left >>>> no no a little to the right >>>> endlessly with Daas and Menuacha
woman (as well as men) have a mitzva of tznius, tznius isn’t only dressing properly it also means staying hidden/home. we see from sorah emainu that staying home is tznius. if the man is in kollel or the wife for another reason needs to help out she can do so in an woman’s only environment. needles to say the men have another mitzvah of shmiras eynayim so even if it doesnt apply in the work it will in a grocery or on the sidewalk. we each have a part here, the men need to watch their eyes and the woman dress down a bit. a big help would be if the woman and men have a separate place.
Reb Gershon Riber (son-in-law of Reb Shneur Kotler, son of Reb Aaron) has addressed this question – of ladies going out to the workforce – in his Q&A shiur in BMG.
Can listen on the site rebgershonribner dot com – do a search for kollel and tznius
I found these two enlightening:
Reversing back from Kollel life to a breadwinning husband
Jan 13, 2025
Read More
________________________________________
Our harried overworked Kollel wives’ sacrifice directly impact the cosmos
Jan 8, 2025
He explains that generally, throughout galus, whenever Yidden had equal rights, there was tremendous assimilation and very little Torah. So, how can it be that today, when we have more equal rights than ever, at the same time, there is more Torah than ever?! He answered it is the koach Hatorah. So, he said that Reb Aaron knew it was an element of mesiras nefesh that ladies would perhaps have to go out to work, and he knew there would be challenges of the sort being discussed here.
Rav Ribner mentioned that the rosh yeshiva R’ Aaron gave a large kollel check [that covered the basic expenses], and thus the women did not have to go to work.
He concluded that while it would be nice that the kolle wives did not have to work, but as it is, the working woman is saving Kllal Yisroel, as with this, there is much Torah.
(We can add that today, B”H, the Adirei Hatorah are going in the
ways of Reb Aaron – להחזיר עטרה ליושנה – to provide a nice salary/kollel check. So, we are seeing a resurgence of this
now. And of course, Hkb”h gives much bracha, midda knegged midda, as the posuk says in Malachi, uvechanuni na b’zos – Hashem says ‘please test Me with this [charity] that I will open up the storehouses of Heaven and pour down blessing to no end’.)
Listen also Reversing back from Kollel life to a breadwinning husband (that you are not required to be learning all day, but spouses should be clear about it – it shouldn’t become a pressure for either one.)
And more interesting pieces there about Kollel: