My fellow Lakewooders and surrounding communities,
I thank you for your letters and thank TLS for posting letters. It gives us “nobody’s” a voice, and an opportunity to express our thoughts, suggestions and concerns in a wholesome way on a real platform. True, not every letter is for everyone and certainly the comments on many of the letters show how there are those that agree and those that don’t, which is what this is all about. Everyone should be entitled to their own opinion(s).
Here is something that I just found out, and although it may not be the news of the day, I think it needs some reasonable conversation to see if this is ok or needs to be dealt with.
I just found out that a young boy on my block has reached the grade where he has Minyan in Yeshiva. That is great! I am so happy for him to get this opportunity to Daven each day in a Bais Medrash (not his classroom), learn the ins and outs / do’s and don’ts of davening with a minyan and experience answering Amein Yehay Shmay Rabba and Kedusha. However, and yes, here is the proverbial “but” – at what cost to his physical, emotional and spiritual life. Is this worth it in the long run?
Just for context – when there is no traffic, the drive from my block to his yeshiva is 12 minutes at most.
You see, in order for this boy to get to minyan on time, his school bus picks him up at 6:30am. 6:30 in the morning????? an 11 year old boy is getting up at 6:00am (or 6:10) so he can get dressed, get ready and get out to his bus stop and then on a school bus at 6:30 in the morning?? Is this normal? Should we be accepting this? Ashamnu Bogadnu Gozalnu – are we not stealing the childhood from our children? Stealing much needed sleep?
And what is it doing to the families of these boys. I would imagine that in most cases (although I understand not all) an 11 year old boy is a child with siblings, perhaps younger, maybe even babies. No mother or father would tell their 11 year old son – tattaleh you get up at 6, get dressed, pack your snack and walk in the dark alone to your bus stop, and wait there till your bus comes, and please do it very quietly so you don’t wake us or the other kids up. So in all probability what’s happening is one if not both of the parents are now up for the day at 6:00. They need to deal with a son who is probably not so excited or interested in getting dressed that early, and then they need to go to the bus stop and wait for the bus. They then come home to their house now starting the morning hustle and bustle with barely time to sip a coffee. Father probably left to the Daf and Shacharis so the dedicated mother is doing her best managing the morning “excitement” in her home. Just not fair.
Now, let’s think about this for a second, this boy is up at 6:00, on the bus at 6:30, spends a full day in Yeshiva and gets home about 12 hours later. Now it’s 6:00pm and he has to eat supper, do all his homework, and get ready for bed. Most 11 year old’s are probably going to sleep around 9:30ish I guess. When is this boy supposed to breathe? When can he let out his energy, play with his friends, enjoy a hobby or anything else? What are we doing to these kids? Do we expect them to be happy and excited in high school when they are coming into it already burnt out?
My Solution? Just start Minyan when the boys get to yeshiva at their regular time. Or, maybe a half hour earlier as they get older. Have a better suggestion? Please share it.
Bottom line is we need to focus on the big picture. More often then not if we burn kids out at 11 years old they will get older and detest the system that causes them personal pain. Causes them physical pain from a long day that starts so early and is filled with so many rules and regulations. Emotional pain of seeing what this is doing to their mommys and tattys. Spiritual pain because at this young age they simply do not know enough to connect through Teffila so it’s more of a burden then a lift. Why are we not recognizing the struggles of the teenagers and doing something about it when they are younger before they hit those years of life? Isn’t prevention better then having to deal with it later?
Please share your thoughts. I used to think that 1 person cannot change a system, but I see with the incredible success of this program Besefer Chaim that is promoting life insurance, that the truth is one person can effect major change. It just needs 1 person to create a movement. If you feel there needs to be a change then let’s get together and make that change.
A Lakewood Resident
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Be happy your son has a school
if the bus comes to early drive him
get all the kids into school before you cry that yours may need to come home early sometimes so he has breathing space
You just pushed aside the whole letter to bring up a different important issue but which isn’t the topic here. Please don’t hijack the conversation.
Totally agree. They would daven and learn better with a good night’s sleep.
totally agree! My boys rarely went to the school minyan bec of this reason and i never forced them go.
This is not some big deal. I don’t know anyone else who has this problem. Each parent should deal with their child to wake up early and make the bus and end of story. They will get used to it.
It is a BIG DEAL in neighborhoods that are from their school.
Agree with every single word. I’m not sure why the older kids cannot spend the same amount of time they usually would spend davening in class instead davening with a minyan, in school.
This is an issue for many years. I don’t have a solution. The reason kids are being picked up so early is because the LSTA and Jay’s accepted the routes which when push comes to shove they really can’t fill. So they send busses, theyre being responsible of course, but how many kids get on the bus at that hour??? I assume most kids are either getting driven or going on the regular bus with the younger kids. Maybe it’s time for the schools to put their foot down and demand busses at a time that makes sense for the students ??
Like I said I don’t have a solution but I agree it’s a huge problem and a real burnout for young kids.
Yea, because your kids school is the only one in lakewood with this problem
The problem is, at least in my sons school, the boys that have to go on the minyan bus and don’t make it bc it is too early or bc they can’t get a ride are not allowed on the regular bus. It is not just the 11 year olds that have a hard time the 12 and 13 year old boys also have a hard time. I spoke to a very well known and respected menahel (not in nj area) and he said yes his school has minyan in school but that is bc that is what is done nowadays. He said it is ridiculous and they do not give the 6th grade kids a hard time for not coming. He remembers when he was growing up that there was no minyan in school for the 6th grade. He felt that was the best thing. He said it is hard for 6th graders plus they are, as you say, too young to appreciate a minyan at that age. He said it is too much pressure for 6th graders. Bh my son’s bus doesn’t come at 6:30 but it is coming before 7 when it is supposed to come at 7:10. When they get to school there is no staff there is no supervision. The lobby is opened but not the doors going into the school itself. As a parent it is a little disconcerting that there is no supervision after all these are a bunch of boys that can get rowdy. I reached out to the LSTA and they said they would look into why it is coming so early.
You nailed it. if the child in this story is 12 minutes from school, lets imagine the same fact pattern except with a functional bussing system. the kid wakes up at 7:00, gets on the bus at around 7:20 to get to minyan at 7:45. That sounds fine.
The issue is not the minyan, it is the bussing.
And BTW, if the kid gets picked up at 6:30, does he get to school before 7 and wait around for 45 minutes unsupervised until the minyan begins?
Yes yes and yes again! And why do 6th graders have to go to minyan? Talk about burnout. By the time the kids get to 7th grade it can be a burden. Let them start minyan in 7th grade when their bar mitzvah is around the corner with excitement. It will pump them up that they’re getting closer to their bar mitzvah.
I don’t know that sixth graders have to go to minyan. But they should.
Nobody is a nobody….
I agree that the hours are a bit too long even for bocherim…
I agree 1000% my boys who need to go to minyan and the bus comes way too early and way too early to school so I really don’t understand why they have to start the bus route so early it makes no sense and puts crazy pressure on the boys. On shabbos shul usually starts at 8:30 so they have to wake up at 8 which is a much more normal time to get up and start the day.
8 AM is the same as 6 AM. An hour apart from the latest mornings. 7 AM should be the normal time to rise. Yet, a good percentage of Lakewood is still fast asleep…………..
100%!!!
The even bigger issue is that once the kids hit 15 years old they go to Mesivta and they wake up at 6:30 and they don’t get home until 9:00 earliest!!!
what do you want from these children? What do you expect from the boys going off the derech?? They feel trapped in this and the only other way out is dropping out!!
#FixTheSystem
The reason I don’t agree with school finishing at 9!
Agreed. Its definitely not for everyone. I did alot better in yeshiva after switching to a yeshiva with a more relaxed schedule. And then did even better when I went to a post israel yeshiva with an even more relaxed schedule. Perhaps some guys are cut out for it, but many are not. And if a child isn’t cut out for it, it can be a big cause of perpetual burnout.
You’re saying this is a reason for them to go Off The Derech?! Absolutely nuts!
Why is it nuts?! It says in the book ” raising a loving family” that if we put too much pressure, even spiritually, it creates so much damage a child can resent yiddishkeit. Btw recommend to every parentto read this book!!
” Chanoch Lanaar Al Pi darko”
Lack of sleep isn’t the same as too much pressure. I hear the issues raised in this very well written letter. Let’s not over-hype it and ruin the conversation.
If learning 12 hours a day is the official norm, we are either normalizing calling shmuessing learning or we are over pressuring the average bochur.
Twelve hours a day is a lot more than the norm. You have no worries here.
And you are nj! In ny our boys gave regents to study for! It’s impossible
And we got off from Night Seder for weeks to study. As do my children.
Just wondering if you have teen boys. They need to be out until 9 or they will go crazy from boredom at home! And don’t worry they have plenty of (too long) breaks during the day. Being with other boys their own age for the majority of the day is good for them
Send them out of town. The parents (and the bachurim) are asking for it. Not LSTA or the town’s problem anymore.
I agree thats why our children go off the derech
Absolutely on target. I’d prefer to change the headline to read : Are we turning them off at a young age ?
That’s different than burnout. There are many kids who don’t want to ruin their lives by going off the derech. They want to do what they are taught is right, but it’s too much and they end up burning out later in life– ie mental health issues.
Per google the public middle school bus routes in Toms River start between 6 and 7 am. They also get out a lot earlier. I hear your point and in my opinion the day is way too intense and long but it’s not necessarily about the start time.
Public schools have at most a 6-7 hour day. Most even have an official gym class, not recess. Gym class with proffessoinals working onskills. Plus many other electable “subjects” like dance, music, culinary etc. Thus their day is far from as rigorous as a Yeshiva schedule. Not much of a comparisson.
But of course we have much greater expectations for our boys. Becoming a Ben Torah is much more intense than becoming an online influencer.
That doesn’t make it ok to expect 11 & 12 year olds to need to be up that early in the morning. It’s time Lakewood schools started getting their own busses. All the Chasidic Mosdos do it, no reason the rest can’t. In NYC the Government even has given the schools the bus funding directly, and no longer supplies the bus service directly. The change has made bussing much more effective then ever before. Mosdos deal directly with any bus company they want. Otherwise are using the funds to expand their fleet. One mosad in brookly doesn’t have a bus older then 2019 on the road. The older busses are spares. The boys would then be picked up at an appropriate time based solely on one mosad needs. Not the need of the bus company to pick up public school kids, or whatever other routes they have.
You didn’t answer the overall point. As of now, they have a very long day because of busing. Getting up too early is only part of that. You seem to want to talk about something else.
Lakewood Mosdos cannot be compared to chasidishe mosdos of Brooklyn. An independent school cannot guarantee drivers and other supporting staff to run their own busses. A chassidus can always call on their own members to staff shortages.
My son is in 7th grade he now has minyan in school. his bus comes at 7:15. I don’t let him stay up too late so he can get up normally in the morning. I personally think it is good to teach kids to go to sleep early and wake up early that equals success!! Why do kids need to go to sleep so late?? They’re busy with non sense! Teach them the right way.
Also many adults can’t get up early because they never did as kids!
While you make a fair point, not every household has that ability. A family of 10 children, the 7 year old won’t be settling down nicely at 7-7:30. Ask any long term mechanech, they will tell you youngest children almost never go to sleep at a reasonable hour. While oldest almost always get to bed sometimes even on the early side. It’s not a one shoe fits all. But when a child needs to be up even at 7am for Minyan, gets home at 6pm, before starting his night routine it’s a recipe for dissaster. That’s before you start with having a simcha at night. I’m sure your 7th grader is in bed by 8pm nightly. Including after Pesach when Maariv by the Z’man as to avoid having to say Krias Sh’ma again and sefira is after 9pm in many shuls.
I do not know about you but my son in 8th grade has to have a chavrusah he learns with for a 1/2 hour. He tries to go to the early Mariv at 8:30, he has a chavrusah for a half hour at 9:30 3 times a week and learns with my husband as well. He comes home at around 10 if he makes the earlier 8:30 mariv if not he has to daven at the 10 maariv. How is he exactly able to be in bed by 9:30? Plus even if he did not have this schedule there is no way he would go to bed at 9:30. You must have a very disciplined and running on time family schedule where everyone gets to sleep on time. Please advise me on how you do that.
My son is not bar misvah yet he still has 7/8 months left until he is. Why is the earliest maariv 8:30? My shul has one starting 6:00 mincha/maariv and many times after that. Also why does he have to learn for 1/2 with a chavrusa they’re learning all day in school or is this instead of regular homework? Very nice that he learns with your husband but why nightly? Is that a review of what he learns in school?
My kids are still young the oldest is 12 but I like structure. They eat dinner and do homework when they get home. Then they can play outside or do whatever they want until 7. Bath and bed. They can read in their beds or listen to their 24/7 until about 8:30. (Not strict on the exact times but more or less)
Easier when your oldest is still young. Maariv times are established by the needs of the shul, not a few 12 year olds. Otherwise they won’t have a Minyan. Plus after Pesach for Krias Shema and Sefira, 8:30 can be too early. Even if he davens then, he may still have too wait another 30 minutes to count efira when it’s fully night. According to Reb Aaron ZATZAL, one needs to wait at least 74 minutes for that. And to live in Lakewood means that’s the only shita that matters.
I didn’t say they have only 6:00. The latest they have is 10:00. My point was that he doesn’t have to go daven at 9:30 when there is earlier options. Obviously when he needs to daven later like by sefira he can go later.
I’m just saying what works for my family-She asked me how I get them in bed early.
The late maariv in the summer for young bachurim is an even bigger mishigas than these bussing issues. It’s a very easy fix to make an early maariv for six months of the year. It is astonishing that so much stress is being placed on the system for one negligible frumkiet.
My son’s homework is to learn for a 1/2 hour. Yes that 1/2 hour is the review of the Gemara. My son just told me the earliest mariv is 7:15 and when they change the clock he thinks it will be earlier. I have 2 kids an 18 year old girl and this son who will be having his bar mitzvah in 3 weeks. Until then he is learning mishnayos so that he can make a siyum at his bar mitzvah. After his bar mitzvah he will only be doing his homework and our family learning shmiras halashon. Whenever he gets home from learning we try to learn shmiras halashon and then he slowly makes it to bed. We have probably 4 different minyan in for mariv. Hopefully when they change the clock he will be able to go earlier. My husband first gets home from work around 7:45. He works in Brooklyn in special ed so the bus comes home between 7:30/7:45. After supper they go to maariv and then learning and for now he also has bar mitzvah lessons twice a week.
Ok beautiful. Be”H he should always be busy with good things and bringing you lots of nachat
I see what you did there
I don’t. Please enlighten us.
Thank you for having the courage to bring up this important conversation. And to be clear, the reason our sons cannot handle the traditional yeshiva shacharis schedule is simply because of early bus pickup. It just isn’t a sustainable lifestyle.
And while we’re talking about burnout, we need to talk about our young mothers. They graduate, get a full time job working long hours in an office, Erev Yom Tov and Chol Hamoed included. Then they get married, have children, and lo and behold they’re still working at this punishing schedule. It’s a real rachmanus on both these young women and their babies. We have a crisis of quiet burnout – quiet because these ladies aren’t going to be going off the derech and acting “at risk”, but it’s a crisis that really needs to be given the proper attention.
So many silent women are gratefully thanking you for remembering them in your post!
There shouldn’t be burnout when adults are living the lifestyle they wanted and chose for themselves. The letter is about children.
That’s not true. You don’t really know what you are getting into until you are deep in. Then you are trapped because the wife has much higher earning potential than the husband so it’s very hard to switch roles.
That is a separate problem. Young woman claim to want a lifestyle that won’t satisfy them so they have to both-side it to maintain face. That is a personal issue. Not a communal one.
Still a very stressful and tiring life. They choose it but that does not diminish the stress.
Stress? Yes. Burnout? No.
It’s what happens when you try to beat the system that Hashem created. It’s the job of the husband to work the primary job not the wife. Because we have switched it around we have many problems starting with getting married, Sholam bayis, children being brought up from a newborn by someone else. All the way to kids going off the derach.
I think we as a generation should look and learn what our mistakes are. And try to educate the next generation so it doesn’t get worse.
regarding boys getting up to early, If it’s a busing issue then I understand the letter. But if it’s a time to get up. Maybe we should teach kids that the day doesn’t start at 9. Some kids will have a hard time but with a little love and understanding. You wouldn’t believe what a kid is capable of.
Everybody was put on this world to toil. Both men and woman. Today’s employment opportunities didn’t exist in past centuries. And the work and productivity that women did then is mostly non-existent today.
Majority of women weren’t the main bread winner so they didn’t require much work. Maybe they can go back to sewing clothing for the family instaed of trying to earn 100k. And the men should be looking for jobs that pay a decent salary.
There isn’t really a bread winner in today’s economy. Food on the table is worthless and meaningless in our economic outlook. You are underestimating how much the idea of supporting oneself changed. Drop outs today roam the country without ever worrying about the next meal. And people in high-paying professions are in heavy debt.
It’s very much a bussing issue. We don’t have it in Brooklyn. When my son started minyan, and was the first stop, he wasn’t picked up before 7:10. Asking children to stay in Yeshiva until after 5pm, get home after 6pm, do everything they have to do and get to bed before 9:30 is not going to happen. If adults according to the Rambam require 8 solid hours of sleep, an 11 year old needs much more. 9:30 to 6 isn’t going to keep them well rested.
Brooklyn is also much more dense.
Public school kids get up the same time. I think it’s healthy.
Uhhhhhh…they come home from school at 2:30
And therefore getting up early is not healthy?
if you get home at 6 after being out for 10+ hours, and you have to be in bed by 9, including eating supper and doing homework, then you basically have no life.
getting home earlier means you can be in bed on time and also have a life.
The boys life* is becoming a Ben Torah.
Public school kids get home MUCH earlier!!!
So what?
So they can complete their evening earlier. Get a proper nights sleep.
I agree with the get more sleep argument. It’s interesting that several posters made this point about public school without mentioning that their argument was something else.
They finish at 2
The discussion here is start times. Maybe yeshivos should start at 6 AM and finish at 2 PM as well.
No. The discussion is about the entirety of the system. Yeshivos won’t end at 2pm. There’s so much Torah to teach. Then hours of homework for these kids.
So then mentioning the public school dismissal time is of zero significance. We should start the same time as them and end later.
It depends on start times actually. Parochial schools start earlier with busses coming 6.30-7.00am.
Public schools are staggered so some children get home closer to 4pm.
For all children sufficient sleep is a necessity.
Help your kids go to sleep earlier if they need more sleep. No night seder. They’re in elementary school. Don’t give em any internet/playstation, and teach them by example to go to sleep earlier.
Sure, every 12 year old wants to be told to get to bed at 7pm.
I do not know if you have or had an 8th grader but after 8th grade is Mesivta. In 8th grade they have to apply to mesivtah. They have to learn and do chazarah at night so they can do well in school and also so they can get into mesivta It is no different than doing homework. This homework instead of doing it at home, they do it in shul. It is not night Seder.
I assumed Ed f is talking about sixth graders. Perhaps getting into Mesivta could be solved a different way. By the way, I’m not disagreeing with you. I think you made a good point.
6th graders who need to get to minyan for Shachris belong davening Maariv with a minyan as well. There’s still all the other factors of life that need to fit as well.
That’s a false comparison.
I totally agree! My son gets picked up at 6:40 and gets to school at 7:15 when shacharis starts at 7:40. The only way to fix this Is every school having their own buses. I end up driving him most mornings.
No American gadol grew up with this type of schedule. That includes BMG Roshei Yeshiva. It also includes Rav Moshe Hillel Hirsch. Gedolim were produced without such pressures.
That is not true at all. Rav Malkiel Shlita was in Boston Mesivta at eleven years old! Telshe had boys from the East Coast that were less than ten. Boys left Brooklyn to go to RJJ on the train at 5 AM.
PS I do believe that there is an issue here that can be solved with more willpower.
Boston he dormed. They didn’t get on the train at 5am for shachris.
The point made was about the schedule.
Ayin Sham.
Couldn’t agree more you literally described what we started having this year. It doesn’t make any sense. Not sure what the solution is, but that’s way too early to expect an 11-year-old to wake up.
Obviously, this is a case by case basis- when I was 11 years old 25 years ago- my bus came at 6:45 when it was still dark. I Loved it! I woke up early, spent a few minutes with my father (my hero and role models). He would make me hot coco and off I went. We loved it and convinced the van driver to consistently stop at Bagel Hole in Flatbush. It was a blast- we would argue about the Yankee and Mets games or the NFL. I think all of us on that van had a blast. Not everything is a crisis. If you can “fix” the system- go an open your own Yeshiva and let’s see how it does. Stop criticizing the holiest among us!!!
Nothing holy abut it. While it can work for some, for others it makes Gehinom seem like heaven. Like another poster wrote, his son gets picked up at 6:40 to be in yeshiva at 7:15, for minyan that doesn’t start until 7:40. That means the bus shouldn’t be by his stop before 7:15. Another 30 minutes sleep goes a long way at that age. The schedule has to be safe and healthy. It also has to make sense.
Nice response. I don’t see any criticism toward any people, holy or not. Some kids and their families find this very difficult. And it is every single weekday for months. And repeat the next year. And the next. Add on several more years if they choose to stay in town for Mesivta.
Agree! Also why do they start yeshiva with a rebbi and sitting in desks at FIVE years old?? And Gemara, they can probably also wait a year
Not accurate my friend.
When should they start sitting in a desk? At eight-years-old should they still be having circle time?
First grade, just like the girls.
At 5 years old (4 for the younger ones!), they should still be doing projects and having circle time.
‘Kids who don’t play when they are younger end up needing to play when they are older’
Girls in brooklyn start at the same age as the boys. Just learn things at a slower pace. After all they have no chiyuv f Talmud Torah. Until High school. Then the girls need to complete Ramban on at least one chumash yearly. Plus Kli Yakar. Not including Neviim.
Public school kids also wake up very early but they’re home and free at 3 pm.
But to wake up young kids at 6am! It’s terrible! It’s abuse! They will not grow as big!
In pre-holocaust Europe yidden had very hard lives thus most kids woke up before the roosters as a result most yidden then were very short and small.
During the early 70’s in Boro Park in Elementary Shachris was 7:30 am of which I never went, I showed up in yeshiva 9:15 or 9:30, In Mesivta I went, Shachris was 8:15 am .
But my kids never missed the school bus, my wife woke them up very early as a result my kids are all not as tall as I am.
My son is 6 foot 5, he gets up everyday at 6 sharp. But then again, I’m 6 foot 8, so….
They could have gone to bed earlier.
They did. 6am wake up for minyan at 11 years old, followed by a long day and getting home after 6pm, is borderline abusive.
LOL!
thank you for a great article. You are definitely 100% right and just spot on! Now that its very hard a draining for the average bochurim to wake up early every day without getting burnt out. Now imagine how hard it is for the bochurim that are overweight and struggling with obesity. It must be an extra burden dragging their boich out of their bed especially breathing very heavy. Its just super challenging. Now unfortunately i believe the issue of our bochurim being overweight starts because they go to a shmorg at a wedding and eat like the wedding is serving tomohawk steaks or like they havent eaten in weeks. Thats where it all starts just shoving plates of food down their throats. Its sickening to watch. And they birp after as if no one is around. Of course they left some of that sesame chicken sauce on their tie. Avdei Hashem dont act like this. Oh, this reminds me that i once saw a bochur put potato kugel in his pants pocket to go. Obviously hes malnourished at home. Hes being served overbaked/underbaked macaroni and cheese for 3 nights in a row. And then some overbaked chicken on the bone. This is very unfortunate because the parents are starting this unhealthy habit. Lets stop this putting kugel in pockets and fressing at shmorgs and iyh these bochurim will have an easier time waking up in the morning.
to the point! Its a real issue since these bochurim are just overeating all day. I wonder what that bochur did with that kugel he put in his pocket, did he pit it in the microwave for lunch the next day? Wonder how it tasted. Now to prove this is an issue, A local rosh yeshiva mentioned to me hes having a big issue with a specific 2 bochurim in his yeshiva that always come late and at the meals the yeshiva serves, these 3 bochurim eat almost all the food ordered for 70 bochurim. The rosh yeshiva said he doesnt know what to do because these bochurim are most probably not fed at home. The rosh yeshiva couldnt talk to them because when he tries their just breathing from their nose so strongly due to their weight and he gets disturbed. He is thinking of starting to serve gefilte fish and tuna patties for lunch moving forward this way there will be enough cuz theres a limit to how much one can consume of such foods.
It feels like you have a lot of pent up unresolved issues to deal with.
What in the world does this have to do with the letter???!!
Why it has very much to do with the letter. Of the boxhurim would be more fit they would be able to get up earlier. They must stop overeating at shmorgs and stop putting potatoe kugel in their pockets to go. Where is the hygene these days?? This is the issue!
That’s a great point. Maybe we should have the kids start dorming before they are old enough to go to weddings so that they don’t get obese or oily pockets.
It is crazy even for mesivta bachurim to have to wait at 6or 630 AM in the cold dark winters mamish an aveira
When I was younger we had to get up at 4 and walk to school for 12 miles in the snow uphill both ways. Big deal to get up at 6 and spend 20 minutes on a warm bus where he can get an extra few minutes of sleep. Besides, he can also rest during recess.
You forgot barefoot. We walked uphill in the snow, uphill both ways barefoot, it was terrible especially carrying our heavy book bags in the hot sun.
What recess? 15 minutes playing chess in the classroom?
yes! Busses in lakewood are disaster. something must be fixed. I went down to the LSTA office all they said was “our goal is to get all the kids on a route”. Hello, do they take into account the timing of the routes? no. just get the kids on the route that way we get the funding. THEY NEED TO HAVE THE KIDS IN MIND.
Maybe you want to drive a bus
Bravo!
It’s time all mosdos got tgeir own busses. Avi Schnall, you’re a NYC boy. You never had these major issues as NYC bussing at its worst was better than anything NJ offers. It’s time to do what NYC did. Every school gets funding for bussing equivelant to their student body. They then hire a bus company that works exclusively for them. Or they use the funding to get their own personal fleet. This system has been in pl;ace for several years now. One Mosad I know of, their oldest bus is a 2019. Yes it’s a big investment. But in the long run, it’s an even bigger savings.
The grass is NOT greener on the other side! Private budding doesn’t equal shorter routes
While we’re on the topic of Minyan, if we really want our boys to have a cheishek to Daven and not resent going to school Shachris, then the davening should move and not shlep out. No need for the extras like Tachanun, Bahab etc. they’ll have plenty of years to say all that if they choose to. Don’t worry about them needing to be taught… Teach Middos and basics of Yiddishkeit instead of bragging about how many Parshios or Blatt Gemara you covered in one year.
This is my sons number one complaint, moreso than getting up early. Yes today is Rosh Chodesh, but he told me his school finished davening at 9:20 starting at 7:40. The shlepped out davening turns him off much more than anything else.
If I child or anyone for that matter starts their day off negatively, it kills their whole day.
Are you nisht mit alemen? You began with a great point about davening moving at a good pace and not shlepping out. And then you went off the rails with a terrible suggestion of leaving out actual parts of davening! Nothing is “extra”. Yes, every Yeshiva should ask a shaila about things that are machlokes minhagim, like Beha”b. But Tachanun?! Maybe they should skip Shmone Esrei, it’s also quite long…
Me2 also ended off the letter with ‘middos and bragging about how many blatt covered’. It seems to be really out of touch. However, I do believe that school minyan takes too much time. Thirty-five minutes is plenty of time for a school boy to daven for his upcoming day.
You’re wrong about Tachun. Bahab I agree as today almost no one says it at all.
Tachlis- Each parent should pressure their yeshiva menahel/administrator to stop looking at the start and end times of their yeshiva schedules. Instead, consider when the average kid is leaving home and arriving home. I happen to think 5 year olds shouldn’t have school 6 days a week, especially if they get home at 2pm on Sundays.
You are lucky your son gets home at 2 on Sunday. My son finishes school at 3:30 on Sunday.
So at what age to our boys begin to grasp that Limud HaTorah means every single day with no exceptions?
I wish there would be yeshiva seven days a week.
When they are actually taught Torah. Now they are taught it’s a competition which Yeshiva can have the more abusive schedule for their boys. teach them to love their learning rather then competing with others. The more it’s forced the lesslikely they will want to do the learning.
The half-dozen schools I have been inside of are all non-competitive. You really seem upset at some one.
My point was that every school in Lakewood gets out on Sunday at 2 or 2:30 or near that time. My sons school finishes on Sunday at 3:30 and it is very hard for him since he comes home at about 4 and all his friends get out so much earlier then him. There was a school in Lakewood that had 7 days a week and it closed down. If you are talking about kids getting burnt out a sure way for that to happen is giving them school 7 days a week. They are just kids. We are not talking about mesivta or bais medrash bochrim we are talking about elementary school boys. Why should they have school 7 days a week. They are elementary school kids. Did you go to school 7 days a week? In terms of your comment about boys grasping that limud hatorah is every day with no exceptions I think they know that. Look around and see how much limud hatorah goes on here in Lakewood. These people that are learning were also kids once and they seemed to have gotten the importance of limud hatorah. There are so many early morning kollelim here in Lakewood and the surrounding areas. When I say early I am talking those that start at 6 am, 4:45 am and many other early morning kolelim. Also another place they learn the importance of limud hatorah is what they see at home. That I feel is the best example. You can teach them from here till tomorrow about the importance of limud hatorah but if they do not see it at home then all you teach is not worth a thing if they do not see it in action.
My son doesn’t go to school minyan for this reason. He davens in shul with his father at a normal minyan and it’s beautiful. The few times he davened in school he actually hated it because there was talking. If the bussing schedule can’t work, let the boys daven shacharis at home just like they daven maariv at home. It’s what they’ll do the rest of their lives anyway…
Good for him!!!! (And you!) Yet, some boys just stop davening when they don’t go to minyan……….
Girls are also waking up at 6:40
First I’m hearing of that. But if have been paying attention to this thread, boys are waking up at 6 AM. Personally, I know of boys whose bus comes at 6 AM.
I agree with the OP 100%.
If it was my son, I would jave him sleep till 7:15 & drive him every day.
I don’t like the whole minyan set up for boys for many reasons.
I drove my son with top boys at 9.00 the school got mad, but we said our kids needs sleep.
I am talking about boys that can learn 10hrs in one day but need sleep.
we As parents took turns or we paid for a lakeway. Yes its hard but parents have to make choices and not rely on schools telling them when to get up.
P.S. The sugar they give to bribe the kids..,,
I disagree with the letter writer.
Firstly, if you or your child is finding the schedule too difficult, speak to the menahel and get reshus to skip minyan. Your son can daven locally and you can drive or carpool in time for learning. I have worked with many boys, and this is the first recommendation any menahel will give if a boy is slipping or struggling. There is no need to gripe publicly about a schedule that works fine for many of us.
Secondly, for many boys, this schedule works fine. They learn to go to sleep earlier and adjust to waking up early. Many parents enjoy the few minutes of quiet quality time they have with their sons in the morning. There are plenty (most??) of parents who anyways need to get up early to manage all their adult responsibilities. Please keep in mind that once winter begins, and evenings are long and cold, it is very difficult for a typical preteen boy (or girl) to occupy themselves productively for more than 2-3 hours. Most boys have minimal homework, so if they get home at 5, there’s a solid 4 hours to fill until a 9 pm bedtime (supper and bedtime take about 20 minutes combined).
I find that when boys don’t need to be on busses until 8/8:30, they just end up going to sleep much later.
Lastly, I’m curious to know how many boys are actually boarding busses at 6:30. I spoke to many parents and the earliest I’m hearing is 6:45. Considering that breakfast is served in school, the boys really only need to get dressed and run down the block, which should not take more than 15 minutes. Most boys are waking up at 6:30/6:45 or later. If they are in bed at 9, they are getting the medically recommended amount of hours of sleep.
The OP in general is 100% correct.
I like your response.
A couple of points.
This conversation is about the boys that are getting up the earliest as they have the longest bus ride. These same boys are getting home the latest two.
A simple solution to that would be to do the evening route in reverse. Have the bus go all the way to the last stop first, and then work it’s way back to yeshiva.
As of now these boys have a twelve hour schedule. two of which are spent on the bus.
I would also like to point out that I know of several pre-bar mitzvah age boys getting up at 6 AM.
Additionally, nine hours is the minimum recommended amount of sleep for elementary age.
Let’s do the numbers. Wake up at 6. On the bus at 6:15. At yeshiva 7:15. Minyan starts 7:30 or later. Back on the bus around 5. Home around 6. Just three hours left to get nine hours of sleep.
And while boys have less homework, they have other matters like Bar Mitzvah Lessons. And it is very important for young boys to also learn on their own time.
The same menahel who insists his school runs on that schedule won’t give reshus to skip minyan. If there was a menahel who did it, even on a case-by-case basis, the kanoim would make his school thought of as bummy. It’s sad the pressures are designed this way.
Please do not disparage our chasheveh menahalim. Many who run the tightest ship and seem the toughest are actually very understanding about individual talmidim’s needs.
Minyan is not mandatory in every Lakewood School.
These “kanoim” don’t exist. Nobody thinks of these things anymore.
I just let my kid miss the bus, daven later and get on the younger kids bus…It just makes more sense.
All these comments are just fueling the fire (on purpose) against the yeshivisha way. It’s turning even adults against the yeshivos. Not nice.
It’s not the Torah way. As you said so well it’s against the yeshivish way. Apparently Yeshivish isn’t being a ben Torah.
Indeed. There is no guide book handed down from Rav Aharon that dictates these rules – it is ever-more-competitive yeshivos creating standards that then get conflated with “Yeshivish” because that is the culture in which they dominate. Derech hatorah is Darchei Noam, never mind the long term destructive effects on the children. I can see a world where they are extending minyan in school down to third grade, unfortunately. Don’t ever confuse yeshivish culture with being a Ben Torah – it is almost as insulting as legitimizing gvir culture. So many “yeshivishe maisos” have created the opposite effect of “reu kama naim drachav vechama naim maasav”.
I don’t know where you are seeing competitiveness among schools that has relevance to this topic.
To explain: One school creates a standard or a rule, the next school has to follow suit in order to maintain the level. Not to say that rules/standards aren’t important, but often these are not thought through and other institutions feel the need to do the same not to look less toiradik. The op issue here is just one of many mandatory yeshiva institutions that may or may not be the correct thing for its students, but become “standard yeshivisha way” as the commenter above puts it.
The bussing times and shortages are not the yeshiva way. It’s a problem that comes from Lakewood’s expansive growth. While this growth is welcomed and approved by the yeshivos, it is not a product of the Yeshiva itself.
The yeshiva needs to get their own bussing. All the Chasidish mosdos in Lakewood have their own private busses. In NYC the chasidim were the first ones to have their own busses as well. It’s called being in charge and making sure the chinuch is correct. HAving 12 year olds that live far from yeshiva, being out of the house for over 12 hours because of bussing is borderline abusive. yes it’s the fault of the mosad. Instead of maing a wedding hall, get your own busses. Yes it’s expensive. But it’s much more important then the wedding hall. You’re in the business of chinuch, focus on chinuch.
Bussing isn’t chinuch.
These independent schools do not have the available manpower to run their own bussing.
Some issues just are that way without anybody being at fault.
It is more important to me to solve issues than to find someone to blame.
I think that’s exactly the point here no? Clearly from most of the comments here this seems to be a major issue that the Yeshivos are not wiling to change and therefore it actually is a smart idea to fuel this fire so that hopefully someone (or a group) of parents can make the necessary noise to change a system that is broken.
The reality is we are losing too many kids and now RL even adults which requires us to work on the changes needed to correct what’s not working. Kids waking up at 6 and homes with multiple young children that are up and running at 6 is not a normal thing. It is destroying homes, adults and children. Let’s add as much fuel to this fire so that it is noticeable enough that the fire can be put out, and stop letting it smolder at the expense of so many lives lost.
That is too dramatic.
I still support finding a solution.
B”h i have already 4 boys in minyan and i totally agree יצא שכרו בהפסדו
even if a boy is ok with it, there’s a physical toll for it.
The childten work harder than an average adult employee. Especially since so many work from home, computer and eezzy chair.
Just because you puuff like a puritz doesn’t mean that its crazy that others wake up on time. BTW the public school kids (elementary) are also getting on the bus before 6:30am every morning. Unfortunately in current day Lakewood it is not considered dysfunctional for a father to daven at 8:30 or even later.
Public school kids are done witheir day by 2-3pm. They also have 2-3periods every day of narishkeit or what can be called extra curricular activities. So there’s nothing to compare. The fact taht so many in Lakewood think it’s ok to daven on a weekday at 8:30 is in part because they are raised in Lakewood and burnt out.
The later minyanim in town are not made up of mostly Lakewood Natives. Stop making things up.
Really? They come all the way from Brooklyn just to daven in Lakewood at the 9am minyan?
Most people who live independently in Lakewood were born elsewhere.
Don’t embarrass yourself.
Yup. You are right. the public school kids are waking up at 6:30am and look what the public schools are producing. Thank you for proving the point of the letter writer.
Waking up later would not produce better results.
Go back to bed.
As a mother of a bunch of boys that have done this and currently do this, I disagree. Although it is hard to get up early (6:00 is exaggerated, our bus comes at 7:08), my boys actually are excited to be part of minyan, and the school has a whole system of which grades/classes get kibbudim- chazzan for brachos is 6th grade, pesukei dizimra 7th grade, 8th graders rotate leining, glila etc.. It is a very good opportunity for the boys to learn how to daven, lein etc. Even when we have a wedding and they have an excuse to go to late, my boys insist on going to minyan in yeshiva. I’m a firm believer in starting things at a young age. It becomes a part of the person. Maybe it depends on the school…Thank you YOH.
Just because you live closer to Yeshiva and get picked up later, doesn’t make it exxaggerated. Hopefully your boys won’t become burnt out before they reach shidduchim like so many others in Lakewood are.
Leave shidduchim out of this. Try to think of a solution instead.
I offered a solution. become like teh chasidc mosdos and invest in your own private fleet. Many NYC mosdos have their own busses as well. Even Non Hasidic. The reason for the bus timing is because the bussing is contracted to outsiders who have their own agenda. Your nedds are of zero importance to them.
Not true. There are plenty of boys in my neighborhood who go to schools with private buses. They are also waiting outside at 6:35. It depends where on the route you are. The chassidishe schools don’t have extra busses at their disposal to make short routes. They fill them up and o ly then head to school. Routes can take long
Oh no! The Lakewood-Outsider has been disproven!
Bh you are very lucky your school has these kibbudim. I wish my son school had that perhaps he would have gone to minyan the last 2 years. My son school is very strict on coming to minyan. They do not approve at all of davening in your local shul and then coming to school. The only time they can actually miss minyan and come at regular 9 start time is the first 3 days that they put on tefilin so that they can get used to putting on tefilin and daven with their father’s, other than that and of course a siblings wedding, siblings bris, and such family events, they have to come to minyan. I grew up out of town and things were very different there then here.
This is not just an issue with minyan-age boys. My first grade son is the first stop on his bus in the morning, and his bus comes bright and early at 7:26 AM. This is an improvement from the days that the driver was coming at 7:19 or 7:21. And yes, the entire house is up at 6:30 for this, and the logistics are complicated to get him to the corner on time, make sure he eats breakfast before he gets out. Mind you, the boys get to school 15 minutes before school starts, so I don’t know why the route cannot start 10 minutes later.
He’s one of the last few stops on the way home too, which means he gets home no earlier than 5:25 PM (at best). The busses have been arriving at yeshiva very late, and yesterday he got home at 6:30. Yes, 6:30. Almost bedtime for a boy his age, especially a boy who wakes up at 6:45 to make it to his bus.
Its really too much for a 6 year old to handle. Yes, he will adjust, but there is only so much that he can adjust to. He is barely getting enough sleep to function, and his wake time at home is so minimal, its pathetic.
Can I guess that you live out of lakewood? There are “consequences” to living “out of town”. It’s just the metsius.
I have heard of similar experiences in Lakewood Proper. It depends how far the school is among other factors.
Nope, I live in Lakewood proper. And I’m almost sure that some of the boys living in Jackson actually get picked up and dropped off before/after my son.
Wow that is crazy!!! I feel so bad for him and of course I feel for you first that your house is all up at 6:30 and second of course because as a mother it is hard to see your son have to be up so early and it is hard for him.
Thank you for bringing this up. My son is finding it very difficult to get up so early. It is taking an emotional toll on him, he complains bitterly about it…
B”h, this year, the yeshiva scheduled shacharis for 20 minutes later, so that’s a bit of an improvement.
Spot on!
Wanna know/see the results?
Look at the Lakewood streets…yup…those were all yeshiva sheep just a few years ago…
Nuff said
Yes Yes Yes, They sleep way to little.
Most likely a government breakfast program at stake.
and why do 9th graders need to come home at 9 or 9:30 pm??!!
8pm would do just fine IMO….
So they can learn every night. Including the late summer nights.
For some reason this letter / topic struck a nerve in me and I ended up reading the letter and (as of my posting this) so far 122 comments. It is overwhelmingly clear, maybe as much as 85% to 15%, that most people commenting agree that change is needed so that kids and families are not getting up so early in the morning.
Interestingly, the letter writer asks for suggestions, yet most people are just sharing their thoughts. I did see a few suggestions like, carpool, drive later then the bus comes, don’t send to Minyan in Yeshiva, and a few more. Not sure how practical these are to many but they all seem like viable options. I am wondering though, why can’t the Yeshiva start their Minyan at 8:30 or 8:45 and still accomplish what it does for teaching boys about Minyan?
I wish I could remember where I heard the following so the proper credit can be given. (It might have been Rabbi Krohn who said this but honestly I am not sure) When the posuk says “aych eleh el uhvi vehanar aynehnu eatee”, bderech drush to mean how can I come up to Hashem and my youth is not with me? The bottom line is (and I loved the line when I read it in the letter) there is going to be a price to pay for the gozalnu taking place, for those stealing the youth away from our children. Having 11 year old’s up at 6:00 is stealing their youth.
We are losing too many to ignore this. Something has to change.
Some people have bought the goyishe opinion that life is about fun. Getting up at six am is a contradiction to life.
Look around you, many people are up at six and earlier. Do you know why? Because they didn’t spend their evenings and nights scrolling, chatting, checking out the new eateries, or wasting time. They have learned, and are teaching, discipline and the value of a productive life.
Waking up early is our mesorah, let’s embrace it as our birthright, not as an unwanted burden.
Are you following the conversation here? We are talking about children not adults. Sorry but 11 year old children waking up early is nowhere in our Mesorah
i am a sixth grade rebbe in town
i tell the parents by orientation to do whats best for the kid
the problem is that experience shows that kids who dont daven in school often dont daven at all yes in sixth grade
ask around by mechanchim
Thats why they should make the school minyan at an earthly hour!
7:30 is after the latest sunrise in Lakewood.
I think the premise of this letter is flawed. You’re assuming the parents are not up anyway. Most likely they are because this has been the system for Doros! Also, the letter writer makes it sound like THIS is the issue with chinuch today. My opinion is we have bigger fish to fry!
I totally agree with the writer, and would like to bring up what about the Mesivta Bochurim that get up and are on the van/bus before 7 (or even after) sit sometimes for 40 minutes on the van, and only come home earliest in the 9s if they are younger or lucky? When are they supposed to relax exactly? There are certain outlets/hobbies that can’t be done in yeshiva. And to the one that will start saying that’s what an off shabbos is for, if someone sleeps a little late on friday, by the time they wake up it’s basically gone, all they did is catch up on a little sleep, the rest of the day they help. Yes, even in this generation there are still bochurim that help! Same applies bein hazmanim, aside for the summer, both bein hazmanim most of the time their parents need their help, and can’t even have fun. Don’t say if the boys have a longer break they’ll get bored, maybe that’s for some, but not all bochurim get bored. I am NEVER bored! #Stopoverworkingbochurim
Go out of town. Issue solved. And some other communal issues as well.
daas torah knows best and you are questioning them
It’s a matter of circumstance. No individual chose or created this setup.