Letter: A Tznius Issue

Dear Editors, I’d like to bring up a tznius issue I feel is overlooked. I’d appreciate if you could please post this.

I grew up in a yeshivish home and have been surrounded by more yeshivish families all my life, so for me this really stood out.

I work as a secretary at a Lakewood office, and there is something I’ve been struggling with for a while. I notice many men who show up at my office are wearing extremely tight suits and pants, and I just feel it’s a lack of tznius. Many people think tznius issues only pertain to us women, but I can assure you this isn’t the case.

As a 22-year-old girl in shidduchim, I feel these daily images are making it more and more difficult for me to maintain the level of kedusha I was brought up with.

I’m writing today to bring awareness to this issue, and hope it brings about some change and sensitivity to others.

Thank you,

Name withheld


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  1. Or….

    You need a doctor. The brain kind…. oops… not sure if my comment us tzenua.

    Seriously? U rather they walk in with baggy garbage bags?

    Tznius doesn’t mean everyone should dress like a nun in all black or like a pauper in baggy clothes.

    Enough. Tls should stop giving these people a platform.

    Ouch. My baggy suite just got caught in the elevator while I accidentally threw my garbage at what I thought was a garbage can but actually turned out to be a garbage bag wearing isha.

    Zay gezunt

    • you are being very cynical and silly, it is obvious there is a great distinction between baggy and skin tight, why would you attack her like that,

    • I personally agree with the opinion of the letter writer; but even if you disagree, there is always a respectful way to do it ;
      An apology to her may be in order

      • As a business owner, I fully support the sentiments of the letter writer. Tznius is a two way street & a person that’s part of the Am Kadosh needs to dress in a refined way. In addition, I personally observe frum men & women socializing inappropriately in the business environment. Joking around, laughing aloud, & stam schmoozing with someone of the opposite gender is asur according to halacha & may very well be an issur dioraisah. It’s no excuse that you happen to be business associates. There’s simply no chinuch in this area & frum Yidden are being seriously nichshol, not to mention the sholom bayis problems this can lead to. We are the Am Hanivchar, and let it show in our offices & business dealings by the way we dress & interact with the opposite gender both Jewish & non Jewish. We need our Rabbonim to teach these halachos more clearly!

    • The woman has a valid point.
      I once heard a Shiur from Rabbi Frand and I will not type now the entire Shiur. He mentioned very clearly and he was very sincere; Here comes one simple sentence from his 40 minute speech:
      “If you are not on the same level as that woman, you have no right to judge her in a negative manner.”
      I think these were the words or very similar.
      A lady reserved a table at the far end inside the restaurant, she knew that in the center of the restaurant, her husband won’t feel comfortable.
      You guessed it, like usual there was an issue with that story, someone who is less Frum was very upset with that family.
      In a nut shell— it is human nature for a person to attack somebody else when that other person has the Chutzpa to be more Frum. I want everybody to be Frum like me. DON’T YOU DARE TRY TO BE MORE FRUM THAN ME.

  2. Kudos to you for having sensitivities in a generation gone mad. Rav Aharon Leb ztz”l many time demanded from the Israeli bachurim that they stay away from ‘modah’. Rav Chaim Kanievsky in Orchos Yosher likewise addresses this. @Really? please get help.

    • The letter writer is correct

      It IS a lack of tznius for a man to dress in certain ways.
      It CAN lower the standards of the community.

      But there does seem to be some LAITZANUS here
      And that part of it is that it seems to equate the immediate consequence of the lack of Tinius on the part of men, which would normally affect men and women alike to the Issue of woman’s modesty, which has a much more devastating and immediate impact, and generally affects men in that regard.

  3. You’re 1000%right.You should be gebenced To stay with this sensitivity your whole life and not be affected by all the goyashe Disgusting lifestyles

  4. I applaud you for writing this courageous letter!! This has been a major issue and an incredible kedusha chaser for me too. The Rabbonim should really address this. But once we’re at it, men wearing short sleeves is also a major kedusha destroyer. In a town as torahdig as Lakewood I shouldn’t have to feel like I’m walking by the beach on a hot summer day. This must end now!! Thank you for bringing such an overlooked issue to the forefronts!

  5. @really im almost fell of my chair laughing. These other people are the ones who need help. They live with krumkeit not frumkeit

  6. Lol… if it’s s good for the goose is it good for the gander? Now the shoes is on the other foot… lets have an asifa.

  7. If i was your father i would tell you to switch jobs, it sounds like your problem is a individual problem rather then a general problem.

  8. I think the tight pants are not tsniusdik for men either. Showing the body like that is not tsniusdik. Men should also not walk around in sleeveless tank tops and shorts.

  9. The Yeshiva bochurs have been indoctrinated by the fashionistas to be cool. In all my years in Lakewood I have never seen boys and for that matter men go after the latest fads like lemmings. It’s not Torahdik in the least.

  10. I’m happy you could still bring up such an important issue and only 50 percent of comments are negative.
    The reason why this issue was never addressed is because it’s a new idea how every shmo walks around like a model, it used to be even the chilled guys would dress casual and not have to worry every time they sit down….. Let’s hope this will start a conversation

  11. Kudos to the letter writer for bringing this to the forefront. I’m a bubby many times over BH and I’m certainly not looking at men in any un-tznius way, but I have noticed this style becoming more prevalent as time goes on. And @Are you serious, your comments are out of line- a person would have to be blind not to see the extremely tight clothing some men are wearing, just as you (presume you’re a man) would be hard-put to not notice if a woman passed you in the street or office and she were wearing a very tight sweater or a sheitel down to her waist. Please be honest enough to acknowledge that you’d see it even if you didn’t seek it out. No one is suggesting men or women walk around in super baggy clothes. But there is a happy medium & that’s really what we should all strive to achieve. One can be stylish AND tzniusdik. They’re not mutually exclusive. @really, your comments making light of this serious situation are insensitive and cruel. OP isn’t trolling. This is a real problem and it’s indicative of yet another way the shmutz from the outside is infiltrating the Torah community.

  12. Everybody should do what they and thier rav feel is right. Please tell me the short sleeve guy is joking and @really has to calm down lol.

  13. I agree with the tznius issue. The Toirah is very adamant about it. Men also Have an obligation to be Tzanua.
    Thank you for your courage. The comments here arent so tzanua.

  14. Assuming this letter is genuine
    I pity all the laytzim . they are so ignorant and blissfully unaware of the horrendously painful consequences that are predicted in the words of our chachamim for downgrading the value of sensitivity in tznius

  15. I have a shaila.

    I bought baggy pants but put on weight after I got married so now they are tight on me. Can I still wear the pants since I bought it when it was muttar?

  16. Once you raised the important topic, I want to add my two cents. I find this issue with the men in my office too, but along with another one. What’s the latest fad with taking off your shoes? Aside for socks being terribly form fitting, I find the smell offensive,

  17. Once you raised the important topic, I want to add my two cents. I find this issue with the men in my office too, but along with another one. What’s the latest fad with taking off your shoes? Aside for socks being terribly form fitting, I find the smell offensive.

  18. Whoever runs the Lakewood Scoop should do a better job at filtering out the comments that come in. Comments that are making fun of such important sensitivities should not be allowed on here. Thank you.

  19. It’s obvious that this letter was written by a bored male. Probably a yeshiva Bochur on an off shabbos. Surprised TLS got fooled.

  20. Let me add the men or bochurim that have the two top buttons open, is not befitting any one in the Yeshiva world.

    I once asked a teenager if he uses a shoe-horn to get his pants on?
    He said no, there is no room for the shoe horn it’s too tight.

  21. The letter is 100% on target
    We are unfortunately influenced by the outside world which is sinking rapidly to a new low when it comes to modesty
    this applies to both men an woman
    For the commenter who poked fun belittling such an important issue that’s applicable to all of us, I suggest you learn mussar see what chazal say about letzonim and letzonos

  22. This is the issue of being overly frum past what the Torah actually obligates. It becomes a matter of ocd and other mental obsessions then following Halacha. I suggest you find a good therapist.

  23. Over 45 years ago, at camp in the summer, I recall the head counselor’s husband requesting that the girls please do not watch the camp menfolk swim because of tznius issues. It’s definitely a sensitivity to cultivate. Form fitting and curve hugging garments are not appropriate for men.and just BTW, pants that are too tight can cause various unwelcome ailments. ודי למבין

    • You have a point (no pun intended!) but at the same time, perhaps it is also something for us all to have more Ahavas Yisroel in genral, IOW, we shouldn’t be too nervous about these things, and instead focus on respect and caring for another. But yes, part of tznius is that one should be passive and not raise eyebrows. This includes in dress an speech etc.

  24. The Satmar Rav taught that people who abused their eyes and look at inappropriate filth no longer feel any sensitivity towards kedusha issues.

    Such are many of the commenters here, These leitzanim who mock kedusha sensitivities have definitely been exposed to much filth, which has desensitized them to such an extreme.

  25. You can’t have it both ways. The real problem is not so much the tight pants. The tight pants is a result of the young women working alongside men. To solve the problem, woman should either work at home or woman only offices. Men are men period, you cannot program men not to hunt. Perhaps you are not directly luring them but just the fact that you are working there is luring them. Get a new job and there is no one for them to impress anymore.

    There is a picture of Rav Moshe wearing short sleeves. Short sleeves is not called not tznius for men.

  26. @problemsolver

    You cannot program male animals to hunt.

    But if male humans cannot be programmed not to hunt.. I’m afraid that I would categorize them with the above mentioned species

  27. As an individual on the outside of your community, from what I’ve seen you guys are already pretty strict when it comes to modesty.. not sure why this women is under attack for being sensitive to what is clearly something you’re already sensitive to? I know much about your modesty having worked with you guys closely before. I know it’s not my call, but the harsh comments being fired in response to this letter seem uncalled for and undeserved. On another note, all of my experiences with you guys have been pleasant and kind. I know social mead is unfortunately a dangerous place, but the comments are written in such surprising tones coming from you guys…

  28. I think we can all agree that slim fit is different than suuuuuper tight. The average Lakewood young man is walking around in slim fit, which has become accepted in the frum world, the same way short jackets became accepted years ago in the yeshiva community after first being seen as a lack of tznius compared to long Kapotes. I think we can all agree that extremely tight is most definitely a lack of tznius, but we can’t expect our boys to walk around in styles out of the 1970s either.

    • Ummm, at that point in history, they wore them actually much tighter, they only starting making them more baggy later on. Then, went back to tight. That’s how these things work.

  29. @problemsolver
    Don’t make men sound so weak by saying that men have no control over themselves. Own your manhood; don’t fall to your weaknesses. That’s all I have to say. Don’t put it on the women to be responsible for your issues.
    Thank you

  30. I’m a more yeshivish-minded married man and I happen to agree about the tight pants.

    However, I feel the same about women wearing skin-colored stockings (I don’t use the N word). Whatever kedusha downgrade you feel from tight pants, is 10-fold in the other direction.

    Black stockings in the summer might be “nerdy” to you, and I kind-of agree – but so do these men feel about non-tight pants.

  31. There are many younger men whose pants are just as tight as the goyim.
    The letter writer is pointing out that loose pants for men are more modest.
    And if you need to find an example of modest pants, most males over 55 in Lakewood wear them!

  32. @ Don’t cheapen yourself

    I’m not exactly making men out to be animals or weak. The fact is there’s a reason why the Torah requires separation of men and women. An office is no different. On the contrary it’s worst as they work alongside each other every day for a few hours a day. After a while a person becomes quite comfortable. Of course a man should own up to himself but then based on your comment perhaps we shouldn’t have any mechitzos at all anywhere and let a man fight his yetzer hara. The Torah requires us to make our own gedarim. He belongs in the office as he needs to support his family. She should not be testing a man. Let her work, but not there.

  33. The Chazon Ish was of the opinion that even the accepted custom of wearing of short jackets by men lacked in tznius since the man’s private parts were noticeable, and urged his followers to wear long jackets, which they do. Will you mock him???!!!

  34. It is important to be normal. I believe our society has become way too focused in this area, and the more we focus on it, the more of an issue it becomes. If people dress in a way they feel makes them attract, that may be an issue, however we can’t expect everyone to dress in robes. There is definitely a big benefit to bringing up our kids in a clean environment, but we see here the downside, that they struggle in the real world today, which is not holding where it should be. In a nut shell, in an ideal world it is possible we would be able to expect people to be considerate and respectful of everyone’s sensitivities. However, that is not the world we live in. We have to focus on strengthening ourselves to withstand in today’s world and focus less on the people around us.

  35. I agree %100. I too work in a lkwd based office and have unnecessary daily Nisyonos that are too hard to withstand. I beg all men and women to pls wear baggy long clothing so we don’t get enticed for no reason.

  36. Actually it doesn’t matter if it was written by a female or some that think by a bored Bochur. The fact is that it is a very valid point, and kudos for the courage to bring it up. For those of you poking fun Hashem should help that you too should be enlightened to the derech hayoshor.

  37. Good point from the ketter writer. Tight pants are extremely undignified on anyone. Abd there’s nothing wrong with short sleeve es for men. On another note,, I feel bad for little boys with unconnfortable tight pants! Their mothers think it’s ” cute”……

  38. Please remove all the nasty comment or those making fun or referring to smelly socks. Lakewood scoop is not a free for all blog and never has been. That’s why some of us go here, but wouldn’t go elsewhere. Please keep up your high standards.
    Thank you.

  39. i think you should quit as the same Ribono shel olam who split the sea will find you more appropriate work environment. It is terrible how ostensibly frum can act and dress.

  40. As a father with young men who want to buy stylish suits, I totally and completely agree with this letter. There is a difference between a well fitting suit, which is neat and clean, to the current style of tight fitting clothing that stems from the style of the “Tomid Bisimcha” “Happy” mishkav Zachor fashion designers. We should stay far away from them.

  41. To any girls struggling with this, all I want to say is that woman in general are a lot worse, and they make guys look like ztadikim, and you girls will never understand the struggles of a guy, each time they see a girl dress with fitted clothes. Now dressing classy is fine and there’s nothing worng with it for girls and especially for guys. Next time you have a complaint about how guys dress I ask you to take 5 minutes out of your day to look around and see how your peers are dressed.

  42. To any girls struggling with this, all I want to say is that woman in general are a lot worse, and they make guys look like ztadikim, and you girls will never understand the struggles of a guy, each time they see a girl dress with fitted clothes. Now dressing classy is fine and there’s nothing worng with it for girls and especially for guys. Next time you have a complaint about how guys dress I ask you to take 5 minutes out of your day to look around and see how your peers are dressed.

  43. To any girls struggling with this, all I want to say is that woman in general are a lot worse, and they make guys look like ztadikim, and you girls will never understand the struggles of a guy, each time they see a girl dress with fitted clothes. Now dressing classy is fine and there’s nothing worng with it for girls and especially for guys. Next time you have a complaint about how guys dress I ask you to take 5 minutes out of your day to look around and see how your peers are dressed.

  44. @keej
    Stockings is minhag hamakom and those that live in places that cover the legs, can cover it with whatever they want. There’s no halacha that you can’t see the lower leg form or that skin color is wrong. It just has to be covered in the places where it’s accepted.
    It’s super interesting how we have asifas and tsnius posts for women and thats ok and acceptable but all of the sudden, when the tnius finger points at men, you guys freak out. Now you know how women feel.
    And go read some sefarim and actually learn what they say and you’ll see that leading a modest life means modest in so many areas. Clothing is a tiny part of it. But, skin tight pants, where it leaves nothing to the imagination is gross.
    Think for a minute why are you showing off every bit of that part of your body…

  45. I agree with the letter and u should look for a job with a better kosher environment. I would encourage u to talk with your Rav. These men look like they can’t afford the price for a good pair of pants. So they nebaach .need to skimp on the material. Better they should wear nickers like George Washington and save some material that way.

  46. This may seem unfair, but this issue probably won’t be resolved from your letter and it may be best if you find work in a women’s only office.
    Sending you brachos that you get married soon…

  47. To Nechama. Stockings is mandatory al pi halacha. The only heter to not wearing stockings is if you have a dress till the floor. (Sorry for my previous comments with typos)

  48. To the letter writer:
    Please do me one favor:
    Please delete from your mind every single negative comment.
    Thank you in advance.

  49. @problem solver

    In Israel in 1959 there was a period of time in which women were being attacked by men. Someone proposed a curfew on women, to which Golda Meir replied:

    “But it is the men attacking women. Let the men stay home.”

    Similarly, if men feel that they have a need “to hunt” like you mentioned, then… THEY should stay home

  50. I’m not saying whether these men are right or wrong (are they actually vaccine packed?) that’s irrelevant right now BUT From the way this letter was written it is clear that there is an underlying issue with her being in this office around men.
    In my opinion she should discuss this issue with her Rav or menter to see whether she should continue working there or not.

  51. There is actually nothing that says that people have to dress to make you feel comfortable. Rather, if you are having impure thoughts you shall gouge out your eyes

  52. are you reffering to quick chek?!? why are you being so vague. no reason to beat around the bush, we all know all too well as to what your reffering to.

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