By: Sholom Shor. It is in great dismay that I have read the opinion of some local businessman right here in Ir Hatorah Lakewood regarding his reaction to Bochurim who drink on Purim. As your letter clearly violates the Halacha in four places, as a good Jew, I take the obligation to point this out to you, L’hasir Michshol, and write this so that it is pointed out to the public.
No one is saying that it is healthy for youngsters to drink, in fact it is against the law, and is surely against the United States law to offer underage children alcoholic beverages. And, no one is saying that drinking should be done in excess.
Yet you my friend have absolutely no right to air views contrary to Halacha. I suppose Daas Balai Baatim is Lehepich from Daas Torah. I will be “Daan Lkaf Zchus” your intentions under a label of good Purim Torah. Know the following however.
You are entitled to have personal feelings, yet it is not fine for you to publicize them, and an Issur M’Dioraiysa to encourage others to copy you, and have all those that don’t know better follow suit. That is Lifnei Eiver Lo Setain Michshol.
Kol Haposhet Yad is not something that is subject to a status of how much wine has been drunk prior, or who has done that drinking, or who is doing the collecting. You still have a Torah / Halacha mandated obligation to give who asks. Though how much to give is up to you however. Your “something tells me” is a gut reaction, but far from the Torah, Mitzvah and requirement according to Shulchan Aruch.
I suppose you are not Mkayaim the Mitzvah of Ad Dlo Yodah, for if so- you would not be so judgmental / or in proper position to be judgmental of those that keep that Mitzvah.
Shulchan Aruch clearly depicts the scenario of a drunkard who breaks anothers glass on Purim. Shulchan Aruch clearly states that the Drunkard is not Chayiv to pay anything, since B’Rishus Purim the drunkard was allowed to drink.
The inyan of Chinuch Habonim applies fully as well on Purim. For your children and for others.
While you may very well point out to your children your views of what drinking does, you have no right to teach them not to give Tzedaka- especially when Halacha mandates it, and surely not to escort people out of your house. If you are an “Istunes”- a very sensitive person- (and some local Posiak tells you that you fall under such a category-) either do not open your door to begin with, or pack yourself off to some hotel for two days and stay away from the whole scene. It is Assur to ‘escort’ people out of your house on a day that they are given a right by Shulchan Aruch to drink. Or do not let them in to begin with. Who ever heard of a Jew escorting another Jew out of his house- because that Jew does what Shulchan Aruch says?
Your letter therefore contradicts Shulchan Aruch at least four times, if not more.
1) Not to give Tzedakah.
2) Lifnei Eiver.
3) The Halacha clearly states that a drunk person on Purim who breaks your items is ‘Potor’ from paying.
4) Not to drink.
5) Hacnosas Orchim. (On Purim guests may be inebriated.)
6) Not being Mkayaim ‘Ad Dlo Yodah’
While throughout the generation Purim has served as a hallmark of distinction for Klal Yisroel in Golus, unfortunately your letter seems to completely ‘water down’ the entire ‘spirit’ of the day, and Americanize it beyond recognition.
In the spirit of Purim I would like to conclude by saying: “Bchol Door v’Door” Oimden Alainu Lchaloysainu, and I suppose because Purim is a time of V’nehapachu, it is not the other nations this time, who seek to destroy this beautiful and most joyous day of the year.
Purim is a time to reinforce and reaccept that which the Torah teaches us- not to self-proclaim our own emotional golus laden views.
My suggestion, have a few drinks my friend, as the worst is not brought out in the Bochurim when they drink, for they are drunk. The worst is brought out in the sober thoughts that you aired which contradict the Torah.
These guys remind me of footloose. Lets restrict everyone and that will solve the issues. I feel like there are too many people in candyland in this town. Dream some more!
wow this guy is yeshvesh
Don’t know …… but he gives out dollars anyway
“Yet you my friend have absolutely no right to air views contrary to Halacha. I suppose Daas Balai Baatim is Lehepich from Daas Torah. I will be “Daan Lkaf Zchus” your intentions under a label of good Purim Torah. Know the following however.”
Sholom Shor, I must say this paragraph you wrote applies to you too.
FYI: In Halacha it clearly states that if one forgets to make even one Bracha or misses Tefila it is forbidden to become intoxicated.
I’m not sure where youre from but over the years I’ve heard more and more Rabbonim saying it is assur to get drunk the way its done nowadays.
Come to Kimball Hospital on Purim and Ill show you around the rooms where there are drunk bachurim fighting for their lives each year from alcohol poisoning and overdose.
very well said!
I can only assume that the author of this nonsense is writing Purim Torah … and even as such is has much to be desired.
Great article
This guy must be a to-ayn in bes din; furthering Halacha no matter what the ramifications. Ever here of “der fifte Shulchan Aruch” Mr. Shor? And what in Heaven’s name are you doing on the Internet? Are you perhaps being “oiver lifnei iver” by condoning logging on to an Internet site? You just opened a Pandoras Box for all those feine menschen who would otherwise be learning a blatt gemara! When word gets out that Mr. Shor is paskening on the Internet, I dread to think how many korbanos he just sacrificed! Oh, and Kol Hapoishet Yad means “whoever extends their HAND for Tzedaka”, not a mouth full of vomit.
And did I forget the Rema who says one can drink yoiser m’limudoi, get drowsy and rest a bit? Not in YOUR book. You are machmir on the shiur of “Retches until your belly Kvetches”.
Frumkeit trumps Mentchlechkeit again…
you can be mekayem “ad d’lo Yada” without throwing up and destructive. I’ve seen bachurim drink “ad d’lo yada” and they were beautiful! happy, funny, super friendly, more open than usual.
you write “unfortunately your letter seems to completely ‘water down’ the entire ‘spirit’ of the day, and Americanize it beyond recognition.”
I beg to differ.
serving bachurim liquor is “lifnei Iver”
The behavior of many bachurim these days is “americanizing purim beyond recognition” The fact that it gets worse every year just proves the yeridas hadoros. Don’t kid yourself. Bachurim are not drinking to be mekayim the mitzva of Ad d’lo Yada. They are drinking because “it’s cool” and seems fun. This is NOT the spirit of purim!!
and who says these balei Batim don’t drink? maybe they don’t drink stone. where does it say you need to be stone drunk?
the OP also didn’t say that he expects to be reimbursed by the destruction. But I don’t think it’s brought down anywhere that you’re not allowed to prevent the destruction from happening in the first place!!
Your writing is very twisted!
and no, I’m not a balabus. I’m a struggling kollel family. But I fully understand AND AGREE with the balei Batim this time
one purim a bachur you say was following halacha was so intoxicated,he fell in front of my car. b’h,i was stopped at a red light otherwise there wouldn’t have been anything i could have done to prevent me from running over this young man. tell me,how do you think his mother would have felt when she got the call from the hospital? that it was ok..he was only observing purim?
I have to agree that these youngsters should not be allowed to consume any alcohol, read the following stats from 2010 (2011 not available yet) to help you understand better:
Slightly more than half of Americans aged 12 or older reported being current drinkers of alcohol in the 2010 survey (51.8 percent). This translates to an estimated 131.3 million people, which was similar to the 2009 estimate of 130.6 million people (51.9 percent).
In 2010, nearly one quarter (23.1 percent) of persons aged 12 or older participated in binge drinking. This translates to about 58.6 million people. The rate in 2010 was similar to the estimate in 2009 (23.7 percent). Binge drinking is defined as having five or more drinks on the same occasion on at least 1 day in the 30 days prior to the survey.
In 2010, heavy drinking was reported by 6.7 percent of the population aged 12 or older, or 16.9 million people. This rate was similar to the rate of heavy drinking in 2009 (6.8 percent). Heavy drinking is defined as binge drinking on at least 5 days in the past 30 days.
Among young adults aged 18 to 25 in 2010, the rate of binge drinking was 40.6 percent, and the rate of heavy drinking was 13.6 percent. These rates were similar to the rates in 2009.
The rate of current alcohol use among youths aged 12 to 17 was 13.6 percent in 2010, which was lower than the 2009 rate (14.7 percent). Youth binge and heavy drinking rates in 2010 (7.8 and 1.7 percent) were also lower than rates in 2009 (8.8 and 2.1 percent).
There were an estimated 10.0 million underage (aged 12 to 20) drinkers in 2010, including 6.5 million binge drinkers and 2.0 million heavy drinkers.
Past month and binge drinking rates among underage persons declined between 2002 and 2010. Past month use declined from 28.8 to 26.3 percent, while binge drinking declined from 19.3 to 17.0 percent.
In 2010, 55.3 percent of current drinkers aged 12 to 20 reported that their last use of alcohol in the past month occurred in someone else’s home, and 29.9 percent reported that it had occurred in their own home. About one third (30.6 percent) paid for the alcohol the last time they drank, including 8.8 percent who purchased the alcohol themselves and 21.6 percent who gave money to someone else to purchase it. Among those who did not pay for the alcohol they last drank, 38.9 percent got it from an unrelated person aged 21 or older, 16.6 percent from another person younger than 21 years old, and 21.6 percent from a parent, guardian, or other adult family member.
In 2010, an estimated 11.4 percent of persons aged 12 or older drove under the influence of alcohol at least once in the past year. This percentage had dropped since 2002, when it was 14.2 percent. The rate of driving under the influence of alcohol was highest among persons aged 21 to 25 (23.4 percent).
I hope it’s not his real name
Until now it was 107.9 that got us all going Purimdik with “Achashvairosh Achashvairosh Ach Achashvairosh….”
B”H The scoop has joined the Purim Spirit- Great Purim Article- Keep it coming-
Very well written Shalom Shur.
You can see from all the vehement of the comments that you hit a soft spot on the baal habatim… One day (very soon) they will realize who is supporting who!!!!
Now Im waiting for the original poster to post his name (if he really holds of what he’s saying) and not hide behind a smoke screen of baal habatishkeit!
I dont get mr Rabbi shor where does it say a mitzva to get drunk purim night.
where does it say your have to le a drunk be mazik you so he does not have to pay
when did you become a morah hora that you can now feel you have true das torah
did you ever learn kabel es hoemes meme sheomria
Much more troubling than the shoddy halachik analysis is the writer’s inability to debate an halchik matter without resorting to name calling and insults. While the shoddy halchik analysis can be resolved by beginning to take learning more seriously, the middos ra’os exhibited in the insulting tone of the article is much more difficult to resolve.
Wow, how well you take the precious words of our holy torah and holy torah scolars to fit your agenda. NO ONE had what goes on here in mind. Not to mention those who aren’t really drunk but feel the pressure to act drunk which can be worse.
i think it boils down to this yeshivas today think they are entitled to the money so they dont have to ask respectfully or say please and thank you because they are doing you a favor
if a drunk kid breaks something in my house he is not chayav to pay? what shulcan aruch is he using
kol haposhut yad will get a quarter i will be giving to people aniyim and to families that need help thank you
what happened to the partys on purim it just seems its all about the checks ?
if anybody nows where their is a party for simchas purim please post
People have been called a zaken amareh for alot less.
The R”Y Rav Ahron ZT”L was medakdek kechut hasearah & did not get drunk on Purim. The Brisker Rov as well did not get drunk on Purim. Perhaps you came to a different maskana but clearly you Shulchan Aruch has negios in it . Get drunk & throw up in front of my kids . But don`t call the R”Y , Brisker Rav & the Chafetz Chaim who also did not get drunk daas baal habayis.
R Sholom has clearly had one too many already.
and can anyone provide the source that “kol haposhet yad” is true for yeshivas also? it may be true but I have never found it in print.
is giving to a yeshiva tzedaka or just something you can give maaser money for?
Thank you. After having a bit at my Purim Seudah, I will read this Shtickle Torah and debate it with anyone else who may have had a bit.
By the way- what did you drink when you wrote this? I’d try to have the same thing, as it seems to do a good job.
P.S. You are only “potor from paying” if it was an accident when you were drunk- and you were invited in to begin with. You have no right to go into someone’s house or Reshus without first being invited in- even on purim- and even while drunk.
A beautifully written piece! As a working man myself, I wholeheartedly agree with you on this one. Well done!!
If this Shor character is learning in yeshiva he should know that he has done a great dis-service to the yeshivas in town. As one poster wrote that he is entitled to his opinion -which is by the way totally of the mark. My issue is the way in which he tries to impress his point. Is this the way a bochur should be debating on a public forum by name calling and spewing such vitriol and worse to the baal habaatim in this town who keep this town on its two feet. Shor what you did is nothing short of a chilul Hashem and you may have caused a lot of people to not want to give money to yeshivos because of your behaviour. I think you have some explaining to do.
serving alcohol to a minor is against the law you can and should go to jail period.
No one ever said it was a particular mitzva for bochrim to go collecting on Purim.
If bochrim sat in yeshiva on purim learning and partying with their rabeim and drank at an organized purim seuda IN THEIR OWN YESHIVA, there would not be the huge sakana that exists today. Now, the bochrim get drunk and are running through the streets like mishugaim, with no supervision and no one to help them.
Let them collect Erev Purim, Shushan Purim or any other day when they are not drunk.
Its amazing how a guy that wasn’t much in yeshiva, goes to work. Then pats himself on the back telling himself, hey i am worth something! (bec. now I do something with my life!) and goes on to give us his version of Das Torah.
This Shor guy has a point and if you didn’t understand it. Refer back to beginning of the first paragraph.
There is a very special place in Gehenom for people who take their base desires and hijack religion to justify their behavior. It is the same place as the people who are Mechalel Shem go. One could be an exemplarary Jew without becoming drunk on Purim. The Torah would never, ever demand something of us that is Nimus. And being drunk is Nimus. Once a person is Mekayem Kol Hatorah Kulah with the same level of Hislahavus as he is Mekayem Ad Lo Yodah, then he can talk. Until then, getting drunk on Purim is very, very low on the list of Hidurim that is expected. We don’t get to pick and choose which Mitzvos are worth doing and which ones not. The aviara of Chillul Shem Shomayim trumps any mitzva. If one goy looks down on a Jew as a result of this very disgraceful behavior (and since we are in golus, there are many that do), you can put the entire “kiyum Hamitzva” into the trash bin; it is worthless.
Ad Lo Yadah can very well be accomplished, l’halacha, by taking a nap. This is something that gedolim agree is halachically agree. You DON’T have to be drunk to be mekayam the mitzvah. Stop pushing ignorance.
To Disgusted:
I got one thing to say to you:
RIGHT ON, BROTHER! Written like TRUE scholar! Beer is on the house! (Non-alcholic, of course 🙂 )
REbRambo,
is the fdefinition of the “fifth shulchan aruch” whatever your klein keppeleh thinks?
˙˙˙˙sɹoɥs ɹɯ ɹo ǝuıɯ ‘pǝddıןɟ ǝɹoɯ sı ʇxǝʇ ǝsoɥʍ ɹǝɥdıɔǝp oʇ buıʎɹʇ
freedom of speech
everyone is entlitled to it. even the first writer of the orginal article
this writer states that the orignal write is wrong for sharing his feelings yet you are sharing yours too
Everyone relax peace love and happiness the baal habatim are mehuder with donating the bachur is mehuder with ad lo yada everyone relax do your thing we all got our strong points spread peace and love AMEN
Let these baal habatim come to the yeshivos and donate the money upfront if they don’t want bochurim to put themselves in danger.
Haven’t seen it done yet. Its just an excuse not to give money but to give a deah.
I saw recently that ad d’lo yada does NOT mean drinking yourself silly so you don’t know the difference between arur haman, etc. etc. it means AD – up until that point, but NOT FURTHER. so any one who drinks themselves past the point of AD is not being mehudar. far from it.
R’ Schor, send your resume to the Baal Habaas. I sense something coming out of this. Hey btw, are you related to the Shor Hamued?
I would like to requote the op – as by the time you get down here you might forget-
“No one is saying that it is healthy for youngsters to drink, in fact it is against the law, and is surely against the United States law to offer underage children alcoholic beverages. And, no one is saying that drinking should be done in excess.”
Now that being said- all the op seems to be saying is – everyone keep the Torah properly. Eat, Drink, be Merry, and GIVE TZEDOKA!
I would just like to add my two cents. After all the emotional reactions to this very hot topic, I think that the following points are incontrovertible:
1. There are definitely rabbinic authorities whose opinion is that the fulfillment of the mitzva of “ad d’lo yada” is to get completely inebriated (provided that one can be sure of himself that he will not be in transgression of any aveiros and will remember to bentch, daven, etc.) There are definitely rabbinic authorities whose opinion is that it is not required to reach the level of complete inebriation. However, for every godol that did not get drunk on Purim by the seuda, there are probably another two or more who did.
3. There is no inyan whatsoever to get drunk on the night of Megillah laining.
4. The minhag of bachurim going around Purim night to collect for their yeshivos is a very recent one (going back no more than a few years).
5. A person definitely has a right to deny an inebriated individual access into his home, the mitzva of “kol haposhet yad” notwithstanding.
6. Everyone should be honest with himself. If one feels that he is able to drink and still maintain his proper state of character (as some people are able to do) and that this brings himself closer to G-d, then he should do so. If not, he should probably not do so. However if a young (or even an older) bachur is taking advantage of the spirit of the day to get drunk for the sake of getting drunk, and you all know who you are I think that we can all agree that you have do business getting drunk.
6. There is no need to attack somebody’s character or position in society because you do not agree with what he says.
7. One who claims to be portraying “da’as Torah hefech of da’as baalei battim” has no business wasting his time reading blogs.
8. People who post and comment on blogs should learn how to spell and use proper grammar and punctuation.
Not sure where the guy who said that bachurim where fighting for there lives in kimball gets his lies from but the truth is a very few of them end up in the hospital. The only major stories iv heard about in the last few years that accured on purim had nothing to do whatsoever with drinking
The “Minhag” to go around collecting began earlier then 1990.
The aunt of a boy in Brooklyn who had to have his stomach pumped about 10 years ago, went around very emotionaly to all the Rabonim lobbying that they sign a letter against drinking.
Hence the letter from Rabonim against serving drinks to Bochurim.
Besides- it is against the law anyways.
I have read both sides over here.
No one is going to solve this debate.
I am in my upper 30s and i also give out a lot of money on purim , and yes many bochrim do get out of hand .
BUT
I was once a bochur too and we went around in groups 25 years ago . this is not something new, and many of us got drunk. its all part of purim , you cant stop drinking on purim , i know rosh yeshivas that tried it and had it backfired. also at young ages these bochrim dont know their limits and when to stop. also it is very nice when bochrim get high and not wasted drunk. its very boring when i group comes in and they are too sober , its just too dead.
what i suggest is to teach the bochrim how to DRINK RESPONSIBLY, teach them how much is considered a “drink” 1 .25oz of whisky ,( and watch out for the high proof count bourbons) i cup of wine ect , then teach them about BAC its about 0.02 for a 175 LB male per drink. the body kills off about 0.02 an hour .
the safe range to be high is a 0.1-0.15 and not higher
so you count your drinks and do about 6 in the first 2 hours slowly and then you keep on doing 1-2 every hour.
i have stayed high 8 -12 hours straight this way many times this way on purim without getting drunk.
they should be drinks available in the yeshiva before they leave so they dont feel a need to gulp down booze when some becomes available.
also of course when people drink many loose control so its not 100% fool proof. and some will surpass their limits but it should greatly reduce the amount of bochrim getting drunk .
they should also have on each van one older responsible bochure who will not get drunk. if a bochur gets to drunk he should make sure he doesnt go into houses ( and restrain him and cuff him if needed ) .
instead of fighting .let the bochrim get high , but teach them not to get wasted .
and by the way if you come to my house i always let the bochrim drink but limit them to 1-2 drinks ( depending on their sobriety level and body size) .
everyone give tzedaka please
To 39.
If ur so careful w/ punctuation then why did you write 6 twice. Lol.
And to all who don’t like when kids drink I wonder what u did as a kid let kids live a little instead of throwing them off the d
As a bachur I know that I can learn shtark the whole yr and not snap from pressure bc on purim I can let it all out.
So all u let me let out all the pressure on Purim instead of going off and drinking every night.
To those discussing the issue of how new the minhag is to go collecting on Purim. After all the hock, drinking, being wild etc; remember this, it is amazing how many buchrim spend a very large percentage of “their” Purim to raise tons of $$$ for all types of Tzedakas. Also, whether it is done for fun or for good intentions, lemaysa I only shudder to the thought of where and what all these Bochorim would be doing if they weren’t out collecting most of Purim.
In order to collect you gads open up a little so don’t do more then you could handle and I will be giving out hundred doller bills to non drunks if your not able to be normal your not gana get more then 20 dollers
To a previous post who is supportive of kids drinking, by stating:
“But the truth is very few of them end up in the hospital”.
Are you trying to be funny?
hope they dont drive and drink
Shor do you know how these yeshiva guys act like “chaiyas” thousands of dollars in damages to ppl houses. You going make a party and see. You are a fake rabbi!!! I see guys laying in streets and on the floor like british drunks like goyim who leave a bar its disgusting what purim turn into and a total disgrace to yidishkite. I seen what the chayios do every year ge
Is this the steve schor I know?
Kol haposhit yad just means that when you give money to poor people for matonos l’evyonim you should not start to research their background to make sure they really are poor. I heard this in a shuir from R Nissan Kaplan Shlitah. (take a look at the shulchan aruch)
While there is inyan to be marbeh tzedakah for all types of organizations on Purim, Kol Hapushit yad does not apply.
There is no obligation to allow drunk bachurim to your home (who may break things in your house and refuse payment.) You have where to eat and sleep.
Become drunk in your house or yeshivah where there is supervision if you want to be makayim the mitzvah.
Halachah is holy and should not be twisted to suit your own agenda.
I wonder how u will handle when u get a phone call that your kids in the hospital bec he drank to much and all the $ h collected for his wonderful misivta fell out of his pocket some where while he was drunk ….. If u serve wine to miners I hope it comes back to bite u. And I still will agree not to give money to those that are drunk
I would definitely not serve wine to miners as this would probably result in a deep hole in the middle of my living room.