1. It’s called “supply and demand”. The boys could ask for the sun, moon, and stars because the girls are shortsighted and decided to start dating at 19 when the boys were starting at 23 which in a growing (exponentially) population means there are way more girls than boys in the dating pool (facts, nothing to do with bitachon). The good news is that there is a simple solution. If the 15-18 year old girls would decide that they don’t want to have to chase mediocre boys for a date, they could band together and decide not to go out until they are 23, this would rebalance the market and force boys to actually make something of themselves in order to get a date with a quality bas Yisroel. FYI, this is all coming from a 36 year old single bochur who right now gets redt to dozens of girls each week from the ages of 24-39, and if the girls would implement this idea, I would not expect to get a date with any girls under the age of 34, due to the perceived value of girls of all ages going through the roof (which doesn’t happen when boys start dating younger, bimechilas kevod all the nesi’im pushing that well-intentioned but ill-advised solution).

   • the mitzvah is to get married and at the earliest possible so anyone who moves quickly is correct the crisis is only a signpost that we are off but we could have figured that out on our own without the crisis by just asking Da’as Torah, so no to any delay for boys or girls, just get married as soon as the possibility really presents itself, don’t shoot yourself in the foot and then blame your teachers, friends, or any other excuse, just do what’s right…right away!

     • Pretty sure Gershons comment was entirely sarcastic

       • Rumor has it that he was 100% serious. I’d like to take his position a step further if you don’t mind. When I was in Yeshiva post high school, there was serious competition to get accepted to Brisk because than the shadchanim would be running after you. Nowadays all you have to do is wear a hat and jacket, with your tzitzis out, and the girls will be begging for a date. Then they go out and the girl is not impressed, so she says “No”. What do they expect, if they flood the market, they are disincentivizing the boys to work hard. This approach of girls getting together to institute a 3 year freezer solves a host of problems, and I have yet to hear of a single good reason not to do it.

         • girls should get married in the “teen” years, boys should get married earlier, no person no institution has the ability to pretend to assume responsibility for people’s lives and future, if you postpone your time that may be your mistake, don’t listen to anyone telling you to do what you feel is very wrong for you, you may find yourself in jeopardy with no one there to save you, if a shidduch is presented to you and it feels right just jump in and know you did what is correct, and hopefully sanity will prevail at the end.

2. 100 percent any girl who gets married and has been working for year or two etc should have at least 50,000 saved up maybe doubler that . The parents of Chosson Allah should look at their kids accounts and make cheshban as to what they need if anything. These girls that come back from seminary and get a job and then blow crazy money on 2/3 trips year to Florida etc is ridiculous and they should be told as soon as they land . Save your money because we can help you only so much

   • What are you talking about 50k. Teachers in most girls schools get paid pennies. And that’s not including their expenses. Today teachers are expected to have fancy projects, which they pay for out of their mown pockets. Hours of prep. Typing up sheets for their students. 50k in two years is a dream. Secondly, that lasts what a year or two. What happens when on top of the initial year, when BE’H the children start coming. The expenses grow exponentially. And I’m not a believer in endless support, I’m just a realist on the cost of living.

     • I am not responding to the OP but to Shmendrik…Only a morah would pay for fancy projects out of pockets and are usually married and have a married or singe assistant. Do a quick calculation. A typical kindergarten is 27 kids each paying 400-450/month. My daughters elementary school provides all the projects, the teachers don’t even come up with the ideas.

       • The vast majority aren’t like that. Some schools provide materials etc. But the teachers have to do all the heavy lifting. Even if you’re somewhat accurate the teachers don’t get paid much by the schools.

3. I must say that I wholeheartedly agree (And I am not a parent yet. I am a newly wed). I have watched my friends who have full time jobs and some of which I actually know their income (between $30-35 an hour which equals to $60,000 full time). I also know that they are being financially supported by their parents. I have never understood this. $60,000 a year is moreeee than enough for a couple to get by easily! I know because we make a lot less than that and we pay all our bills and can even go on a “date night” once a week. I think this is an issue that truly does need to be addressed and is putting so much strain on parents who feel obligated to support because otherwise they wouldn’t get the “good learning boy”. I think it is a disgrace.

4. Dont marry off your self sufficient daughter to someone that is demanding support even if you cant afford it. There are many stable minded families and boys out there that aren’t getting married to be rich.

   • We fathers of girls don’t have a choice who to marry our daughters off to and whether to give a lot of support. The situation is so bad and desperate that we must give ANYTHING these little boys and their mothers request. I am so, so disillusioned. The pain of being investigated thoroughly by boys and their mothers and then never getting a date is an עולה גדולה that someone will need to answer for.

     • As much as I hate to say it, you would be so much better off without the shadchans. Step into the driver’s seat and step out of the box before it’s too late.

5. Ok dude, first off you have to chill.
   If you have Shayla such as this you would’ve been better off going to a Rov.
   You didn’t , so I’ll explain it to you.

   Every case is a case by case situation.
   If your daughter is extremely capable and has enough saved up for a long time, the das Torah that you use would most probably tell you , u wouldn’t have to support.
   Each case is different. Support a young Talmid chocham is an honor and privilege especially if he married your daughter.
   You sound very bitter about the whole thing and you really need a rabbi to set your straight on your haskofah.
   I hate when people air out their dirty laundry here to replace a das Torah which they don’t have

   • You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Factually speaking this is not the case. Even specifically in cases where the girl is making money.

   • im sorry but this conversation is for more of the adult minded followers of the scoop please move on

6. Thank you for raising an incredibly important topic. I would like to extend your line of reasoning even further. There are many girls that earn enough to live a lifestyle of Torah mitoch hadchak but cannot afford to live according to today’s ” regular ” lifestyle. At what point can we tell our prospective son’s in law that if they are willing to sweat a little for material comforts then they will be able to sit and learn. Otherwise, they may feel free to go out and work. Don’t they realize the added financial stress is literally giving their dear wife’s father a heart attack. Are today’s children that selfish?? And even if they only care about themselves then it bears mentioning that what goes around will around when they make weddings for their own kids……

   • The problem is their parents can’t afford their own expenses let alone that of their married children. The system is ultimately messed up. It used to be a couple was supported for max a year or two. Unless of course someone was clearly already a Gadol Hador. Today anyone that is willing to ask for less then 5 years is deemed an Am Ha’aretz before they get started. They also lived in their in laws house as part of the support, not in a mansion or other expensive rental of their own.

7. you are telling me about a large number of girls who are already able to support a husband and willingly so, what is the heter for a boy to delay shidduchim? 3 generations ago no girl was able, almost no father was willing to allow his daughter to undertake it, so the boys waited for that special girl from a really strong family to take the plunge into the unknown world of Kolel, today the average girl is saying she will undertake the make the entire Shabbos, the boy only has to come home and make Kiddush, what are they waiting for? what is the heter to delay? the boy is “not yet ready”? ready for what? the girls are assuming total responsibility, the boy just has to just come to an exquisitely and elaborately prepared Shabbos and make Kiddush, what is the justification for the currently mandated delay? there are girls available, with correct hashkafos, and with the keilim to support, but no, we are trying to be protective… who do we trust will watch our boys better? us, or the girls that they were meant for?!

8. Who said you Have to be Mishadech with those that ask for additional $ I married off two fine boys One a 5-10 yr learner another a long term learner and I DIDNT EVEN ASK OR EXPECT IT!
   They both manage BH quite well with their wives income
   And neither will I do the same for my daughters
   We tend to think we must follow “The Silly Trends”
   HaShem decided their Zivug b4 they were born So what are you worried about?!

9. The money is often put away for a down payment on a house, something that is hard to come by otherwise.

   • Lol. No its not. And since when is support suddenly about buying your children real estate?

     • In Eretz Yisroel, you need to come up with $150,000 for a down payment for a Dira or else your daughter will not get looked at by shadchanim.

       • Are we talking about Eretz Yisroel or America here?

       • The Israel Situation is way different. Primarily because woman cant really support the family on their paycheck. So lets get that out of the way. Its real support.

         Which leads to second point. There is a famous Israeli joke. There are two times a ambulance by some ones house signals a simcha. A baby and a vort. Its sad but true.

         • “woman cant really support the family” – I think this is where we went wrong in the first place. It’s not a woman’s job to support a family. where did we get this expectation?

     • lol? 130k if your lucky plus closing costs….whats easy about that?

10. Great question.
    Here’s my take.
    When I started shidduchim, I told my parents I wanted a girl who was already finished school so we shouldn’t be a financial burden on our parents. Sure enough, my wife is a year older than me, was already working, and we never needed to take from our parents.
    Additionally, shortly after we were engaged, we each told our parents that we wanted a package wedding, and unnecessary funds should not be spent on our wedding.
    My father still helped out a bit by giving us $250 a month for our car and my in-laws provided some other things like my wife’s cell phone…
    When we felt we no longer needed it, we put the bills on ourselves.
    In short, if your child is well raised, they shouldn’t take when they don’t need.
    To your point, my mother once commented to me, why am I paying for my kids to eat steak, when I don’t eat steak?!?
    I know there’s a lot of talk of the Shidduch crisis, and in no way am I minimizing the pain of those families who have girls that need Shidduchim, but why does the solution have to be the boys should get married younger?
    That will make the parents support the kids earlier, and longer. Why can’t the solution be the girls get married older? If the girls get married older, they will already have finished schools, started their career and the need for support will be less.
    One more point, and I guess you can say it’s a little devils advocate.
    My oldest child is 8 years old. After paying full tuition, day camp, clothing, food… we probably spend $25k-$30k on everything she needs. That’s the same amount of money people are asking for support! Don’t think that at age 20 they come off the payroll. They stay on until age 25 and all you are giving is the money you were spending on them until now anyway!

    • The question is why are parents paying long term. Why if Halacha dictates get married at 18 are they waiting to begin the process until mid 20’s. No matter what it’s expensive today. Neither way will it become cheaper. The least we can do is make believe we follow the torah. The Mishnah says 18, so start at 18. As Reb Chaim Kanievsky ZATZAL said, he started looking at 18, but his Bashert was barely past the age of a ketanah.

      • correct me if I am wrong, but it also says something about not using the Torah as a “shovel” and teaching your son a means by which to make parnossa. that seems to be the heart of this issue and the shidduch crisis.

        • Also true.

    • How do you figure? I just did the math and I’m spending under $10,000 per kid per year for my bochurim food+clothes+tuition+camp, well under that for an elementary age child. Add another $10,000 for bar mitzva expenses.

11. well said!! very good question

    bcm

12. I didn’t ask for support yet I received some until I was advised to stop taking.
    That having been said, what’s the problem with someone asking. Nobody has to say yes to him. There’s plenty of boys who will be fine with a girl who can earn what is necessary.

    • I’m in my 40’s and I still don’t earn enough. I still struggle to pay my bills. The correct answer is to be a Jew and recognize that whatever you will need comes from Hashem. Not from your in laws and not from programs.

13. I have read that Rav Chaim Brisker z”l received a very big dowry from his father in law, Rav Refoel Shapiro z”l. After the chasuna, he learned that his father in law was penniless but borrowed all the money from the rich people in Minsk. He took his whole dowry and repaid the entire loan.
    Unfortunately, this is not one of the chumros of Rav Chaim that we accept upon ourselves……

    • 1)how old was Reb Chaim Brisker when he got married?
      2)how old was the Brisker Rav?
      3) is it true that the Brisker Rav delayed his own children’s shidduchim during the war years holding the hope that the Rebbetzin might have survived and would come to help marry them off, but immediately after the war he began to marry them off?
      4) are we currently living in a war zone that we should similarly delay shidduchim???

14. There are definitely boys out there who are happy to learn and live on their wives’ income, without taking support. We made sure our daughters had well paying careers if they wanted long term learners. They found husbands who were fine with that and did not ask for regular support. We always try to help out if and when needed, if we can. If your daughter’s income is enough to live on, there are boys out there who are OK with that.

15. The premise of this letter misses the boat. Shulchan Aruch says support (dowry) and refers to a place to live (deera). In EY parents must buy an apartment (thus all the Hachnosas Kallah meshulochim from there), while in America it’s called rent. So the need to support is not a modern day new thing. It dates back to forever ago.

    That being said, our derech halimud in yeshivos worldwide is to use the 1st 20 – 24 years of a boys life for learning. Those who follow that path (and don’t go to collage) are not in a position to support their wife and family. So what should they do?

    Rent – 1800 x 12 = 21600
    Food – 150 x 52 = 7800
    Car, car insurance, utilities, clothing, yomim tovim, health insurance, phones, gas, tolls, and other basic low end needs and we are well over 40K a year.

    It’s a reality of the system we have set up ourselves over the years and we are imploding. Therefore until changes are made, the need for a boy to be supported is real and a reality.

    Combine reality and Shulchan Aruch and you now know why it is the way it is

    • The writer of this comment misses the boat. The letter wasn’t talking about a dowry. And the typical dowry was NOT $100,000 for a typical boy. Secondly Israel is a different situation because its support. The letter was addressing rent when the couple is self sufficient.
      Now to your main point. The letter explicitly said that there are situations that warrant support. It was explicitly addressing when the girl is making 50-70 which many are. Most girls make around 50K so they dont need an additon 20k. Read “Oy Vey”, Read.

    • Turn your Lakewood basements into 2-3 shared apartments. A shared bathroom and kitchen. That would be closer in style to what was in the times of Chazal. Then it wouldn’t cost even 10k for rent. Start eating like the Mishna in Pirkei Avos says, bread and water, not that expensive. You quote Shulchan Aruch as stating a place to live. Back then a newlywed couple lived in her parents house, and didn’t get their own place. We have turned that Halachah into a purely Gashmiyus way of life. It was also only 1-2 years. Today you’re lucky if you can find a Bachur willing to accept 5 years. 50% want 10 years. Where is that mentioned? It’s a total joke.

16. If you want to learn long term and you have a good girl with money, and a good girl without money, go for the one without the money! These girls know how to make it work when the going gets tough, instead of kvetching like a baby.

17. And when the babies start coming? Morning sickness etc. Then who do you want raising your grandchildren? Ein kemach EIN Torah. Lfum tzara ahgra. Learn as long as you can (which by the way means both financially and emotionaly ) and then let your wife be a wife and mommy and GET A JOB. Your night seder bkvias will hold up the world as if you learned all day. Think about it. What are you learning for? Delve deep into that.

    • If money is needed than Kol Hakovod. And what happens when the support ended? Dude, grow up.

18. I’m speaking as a responsible adult here. With adult kids. When I got married I made sure my earned income was more than my expenses. If it meant I worked harder or spent less depended on the month. I lived within the parnasah Hashem granted me. A working woman should be able to pull in enough for a two person family. We took an apt that was gross cuz the price was right and I bought what was on sale for meals cuz that was within our means. We also took support from my parents but we treated that as unearned income which we put away. Its not a lot to ask of parents to give 20k dowry.. thats how much a year support is basically and some people spend that just on wedding night peripherals like flowers/gowns etc… it’s not a lot. After 5 years we had enough money to put down on a house. So the support helped us not to live nicer, not to get a nicer stroller or trip to the Bahamas it helped us know we wouldn’t fall back on payments if we had a rough month. But we tried our best to be self sufficient even with the money coming in. If we got 500 froma. Grandparent or tax return we never ran to the linen store it went right to the bank. If we needed a vacation or linen we bought what we was the.most reasonable that still suited the ‘itch’ at that time. We never.looked at any unearned income as ‘free money’s and our lifestyles haven’t changed now that there is more income to play around with. It was a Torah base for how to build a home.

    • Today 20k a year wouldn’t get your daughter married. As someone calculated above, that’s still short on rent. In LAkewood today you need to pay for a car as well, and not a jalopy. They want nothing more than 5 years old. Plus food expenses. You’re looking at 35k for a minimum today of 5 years. Then they want you to dress their newborn like a Kallah going to a chupah.

19. I my life I realized people pay for what’s important and make shetos about what’s not as important. If it’s important that your daughter should marry a ben torah you make it work. Most yungerlight like myself “Make it work because it’s important to us to have our children marry beni torah. It’s my greatest kovod to give my children in learning what every they need.

    • I had a very different understanding of the author’s letter then what you understood. My understanding is that he’s saying why is there a required monthly support payment to married couples if the married couple doesn’t need it and they can financially be on their own based on the bride’s income. Parents don’t have unlimited money to support a savings account for the married children. I hear his point. I never offered a monthly support and only supplement as needed. I married off a few daughters this way to Bnei Torah without issues. My daughter’s are getting paid very well in Lakewood and my mechutanim understood. Communication when making shidduchim is key.

20. Shocker alert: When I got married and was learning in BMG, many couples did not own cars. Imagine that.

    • What year was this?

    • You probably didn’t ask for anything close to the support that is being asked these days. And that’s including the value or lack there of, of the dollar.

21. I ain’t reading all that,
    I’m happy for you though,
    Or sad…

22. Why do you think this is the appropriate forum for this issue? How do you think it’s possible to post such a letter even with your disclaimer and not get comments bashing learning?

    • Who is bashing learning?

23. Unfortunately, with current interest rates and housing prices, all recently married couples are messed over even with the extra 18k of support.
    People believe the system works but the numbers the last two years don’t add up once you hit the age of needing a house and tuition(and more food).
    The accountants are sounding the alarm but the askanim are nowhere to be heard. Maybe they are too busy with the their own failing investments…
    I’m thinking maybe it’s a good time for Moshiach to come?

    • Your comment is written in a way that people with low aptitude for reading comprehension might think that if we could live like kings we don’t need moshiach, but if we start feeling the golus a little, (not like the Churban Europe, just not everyone can afford a palace) now it’s time for moshiach!

24. Unbelievable all the comments are pro working. All the people that would comment otherwise are in BMG and are not on yeshivaworld. This is not a fair conversation.
    All my Chaverim in the work force tell me that per ratio they earning same amount as when they were in kollel( Jersey care WICShopper etc)

    • Who’s talking about pro working. We’re talking reality. You’re talking about telling me to pay your bills. I’m telling you I can’t afford my bills, not complaining as it all comes from Hashem. But you have zero, I repeat zero right to tell me to sign a contract that I will support you without having the funds to do it. When I Bachur gets married he is taking the full responsibility of all funds onto himself. That’s what it says in the Kesubah. That’s a Halachik fact. If you don’t know it or accept it, you’re parents wasted thousands on educating you in Yeshiva.

25. if the girl is 19-20 and only a few months back dont expect her to have a bank acocunt of savings. in fact itsa talmost zero because they pay top taxes as ther eis zero dependents. with cost of clothing and everything expensive there isnt much left.

    in fact maybe girls should wait til 20-21 for which they have settled down, matured and are more leveled. it may also aleeve the stress many feel to get engaged before landing from seminary. the stress leads to unfortunate cases of divorce or broken engagments.

    that said a girl who is 23+ and making 50-90 a year is paying huge taxes as she does not have any dependents. taking a trip 1-2 times ayear for 2-3 days to keep her sanity is not selfish but smart. many of these girls pay for their own clothing. some parents will pay for their clothing and other expenses knowing that there is a savings growing.

    with aprtments now averaging 2k plus utilities there is not much left after taxes and utilities to live on. so for all speaking do what you can do for your children.
    and yes there are many quality girls out there than boys. girls need to stop dumping boys on 1st and 2nd dates and allow themselves the opportunity to get to know the boy without the pressure of being engaged by a specific date. boys have to start giving girls chances. unforunatly many (and many time their mothers) are looking for the perfect fit yet not knowing what is truly best for their son. there are girls who have not dated in not just months but over a year +. and then there are girls older then 22 and ones off the boat who are known as dumpers and dating weekly- until their reputation comes around. is there a crisis? cant figure it out. everyone is looking for the perfect status family they consider a match for them.. and might i add there isnt a perfect family… we are all diffrent from each other.

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