Dear parents,
If you’ve invested all your effort in the chinuch of your children, and you daven all the time for your children’s hatzlacha in torah and yiras shamayim, please take my words into serious consideration before sending your son to Eretz Yisroel.
I am now a 26 year old yungerman with a family b”h. I feel an achrayus to let you know that going to learn in Eretz Yisroel today, is not what it was in your days. I am what they call a metzuyin, I went to the top yeshivos in America, then to Yagdil and Brisk.
What can I say? The airport and plane should have been enough to send me back with a 1-way ticket. I watched my eyes, I really did, but seeing what I saw (and as a bachur…) is inevitable. Once I landed, and went through the whole arduous settling process… I thought that at least I will get down to serious learning and gain what I was told I can gain. I wished that at least I would have the excuse that I learned better in Eretz Yisroel, and somehow cover up the yeridah atzuma in ruchnius that I was exposed to. But I didn’t, and not many of my friends did either.
Let me tell you, the tumah we were all exposed to is unimaginable and I hope and daven that I will never be in such a nisayon again. I’m a metzuyan, a fighter, and my father trusted me. Yes, I fought hard, but “it was in my face…”
The hefkeirus and many other things going on there, were not so conducive to hasmadas hatorah. There is much to say, but it may be better left unsaid.
I feel that my time in Eretz Yisroel was one big waste of money, time, and ruchniyus. When I came to learn in Lakewood, I was finally relieved, I got back to serious learning, b’kedusha. Yes, it may be that back in the day, when you went to learn there, there was much to gain, and the atmosphere was clean, but l’maan hashem, those days are over.
Please heed my words and at least do some research, not by bachurim, but by honest mature yungerlite. Please have rachmanus on yourself and your children. You can send them straight to Lakewood, you can send them to Kollel Kodshim, or you can get together and open a new Yeshiva, but please, do something. I do not believe
that most men my age will be willing to send their own sons when they grow up, and if you don’t stop it now, we for sure will.
Hatzlacha raba, and may Hashem watch over his children.
A caring yungerman.
TLS welcomes your letters by submitting them to [email protected]
Nothing has changed. I had the same experience almost thirty years ago. I called one of the Ziknei Rosh Hayeshiva and told him similar to what you wrote, but I filled in the blanks that you decided to leave out; and he thought I was nuts.. hopefully people will realize sooner than later.
I had only a most derhoiben experience 16 yrs ago.
I went to yeshiva in Israel as a bachur straight out of nirc high school 30 years ago and had no such problems, bh.
I’m still living in Israel now but my bechor is learning in Lakewood.
because they are worried that the gurls will hang out with the boyz and gurlz are easier to keep in the building because they generally are at home
untrue,untrue, these chevra are so fashlongen
Your experience is your.
B”h others these days have other stories to tell, and have steiged.
There isn’t really an American bais medrash 4th shiur no dating with a significant oilam to go to. They are not ready or want to go into shidduchim.
That said my sons Rosh yeshiva who himself is an alumni from Brisk stated to me ” most bochrim if your lucky float ..”. Yet he had no solution in America for a 4th year shiur bochir to attend.
It also depends on the bochur as some gain in their maturity and experience away. Doing their own cooking, cleaning their apartment….
On the other hand my working sons not in yeshiva said that what goes on in israel is crazy. And they should now.
Another bored person that likes to write dumb things and make a fool out of himself, plus he said he’s a “metzuin” really??? Doesn’t sound like that… and btw The Lakewood Scoop should be ashamed of themselves for putting this out there… if u need content there’s plenty to find.
Thanks for listening.
My freind, just because you disagree doesnt mean he’s wrong.
His story resonates with a LOT of people.
Your dismissal of it, and your insult of him is unwarranted.
Sounds like a guilty conscience…
The Lakewood Scoop doesn’t need me to back it up but I’m just trying to understand as to why you’d have a problem with the scoop posting this letter. It’s one person’s opinion and it’s a very relevant topic that will generate debate as the posts suggest and there’s no loshon hora involved or any other forbidden talk. So why not have the discussion?? You don’t have to agree with the writer, in fact most don’t agree with him but why do you have a problem with it being posted. Trying to understand you, really…
Yesh vyesh even nowadays
This man is so right.
I know firsthand what he is talking about, but I won’t publish it for the sake of KEDUSHA.
But let me tell you one thing, absolutely, in any circumstances, DON’T SEND YOUR SON TO EY WHEN HE IS A BOCHOR; let him go if he wants when he gets married.
Wow, very eye opening. Thank you for your honesty and for sharing this so we can make better educated decisions when deciding if/where to send our sons at that stage! Tizke lmitzvos.
This makes no sense. Plenty of מצוינים from America & Europe learn and שטייג in Eretz Yisroel. שמירת עניים is todays fight. I suspect you’re from the Shiduch crisis people that are trying their best that Bochurim shouldn’t learn in EY
The whole direction of the letter doesn’t seem to be written by a person who actually went through this, but someone presenting a hypothetical situation. (I find it hard to believe that someone would refer to himself repeatedly as a metzuyan and that he is now learning b’kdusha, amongst other things) The letter seems to be written by someone approaching middle age. (I think if you pay attention to the details. You will see that.)
Now that we got that out of the way, to his (or her) point: While I do believe that such an experience happens – and not just to a few people – I do believe, that it is a small minority. There are yeshivos in Eretz Yisrael for everyone and parents must know which are the best for them. While I did see guys having a yerida – it was not from those who came to Eretz Ysirael to learn with sincerity, but the guys who came to have a “good” time. There are those who came sincerely and had a yerida, but that was a small minority of the small minority. The letter-writer’s point of learning in the US is a very valid point. However, the reason boys go to EY is because MANY have a great aliya in learning, which would be hard to replicate in the US. I personally was not a metzuyan or a fighter or learned b’kdusha, but my year in EY was significantly greater than the years in my US yeshiva before or BMG afterward and I know many like that. So, the question is: When there is an option with an opportunity for Aliya but also has a real possibility for yerida, what do you do?
The answer is easy, but not simple: Each case should be dealt with individually, with clarity and sincerity.
The lingering issue is: What if we deem it proper for him not to go to EY – everyone goes and he can’t be left out. That is a real sha’alah that requires very smart people to arrive at a proper solution.
Broad strokes rarely provide an answer.
Mobile- You state a lot of fluff.
I would assume by “fluff” you mean statements not backed by fact, but you don’t explain your statement with any facts.
Please TLS. Paid advertisement by nasi?? Please say so and don’t try to fool everyone. We’re not idiots.
Lol, the only person you outsmarted was yourself.
This story is so resonant with so many people. You can be like the others here and say yesh v’yesh, and that can be true.
But to pretend that the author isnt bringing valid points that are actually occurring is either foolish or naïve. Egregiously so.
100% correct.
Great thinking your in the ball. They tried everything else and it fell on dead ears. I haven’t heard anyone argue and say there wrong. So why shouldn’t they try an alternative?
I am sorry you were unable to rise above your personal nissyonos. But please don’t try “Tammus Nafshi Im Haplishtim” to ease your guilt. You are indeed, as you self-profess, a “mitzuyon” … but in rationalization! Not everyone fails to some degree in eretz yisroel!
To thine own self be true!
Couldn’t have agreed more I was there over 15 years ago the same story go to eretz Yisroel for bein hazemanim there are less distractions in Lakewood.
I learned in Eretz Yisroel in 1988-9, it’s a while ago and things were definitely different and better back then. That said, my response to such an assessment of what a bochur is likely (likely…but not a given) to experience going to learn in Eretz Yisroel is that parents much make a tough decision before sending and really have a frank conversation with their son about the merits of going to learn there for the very reasons that this writer explained. However I don’t think one can just simply say that learning in Eretz Yisroel is not advisable for any bochur anymore given the nisyonos and the difficulties that a boy is likely (but not a given) to experience. I say that because there are many yungerleit today learning in Lakewood and elsewhere that will tell you their best years (where they shteiged the most) was the year(s) that they spent earning in EY…
I’m wondering if the problem is that parents give their children full reign of their credit cards. Someone once told me that when she was living there as a newlywed her husband was asked to join some bachurim from the “best” yeshivas who were renting a hotel room to watch the super bowl (as an aside he didn’t join). My son had a truly amazing experience…he didn’t have our cc and his finances were very limited because his purpose for being there was to learn and soak in the air there. Yes he went away for shabbosim and gained so much from those experiences. Many bachurim feel the need to really take the experience to the next level and not only make their way around the who EY but have gone into other Middle Eastern countries during their stay. So sad for those who have not had the experience they could have. Just my opinion.
Proud Mom, should be proud !
P.S. The author was NOT referring to watching a sporting event…
happening on a daily basis. I know of someone that if they could’ve landed on shabbos in EY would’ve flown late friday afternoon. Their son od’d while supposedly in yeshiva. It didn’t happen when he was in a proper supervised yeshiva in America. Fact is, most yeshivos in EY are basically unsupervised free for all for the bachurim. To assume your son is going to all of a sudden be a perfect person without any guidance is truly naive.
True!
I had a great time but there’s no denying that I did not gain, at least spiritually, from being in Eretz Yisroel.
Perhaps a better idea would be to go with your whole Yeshiva for 3 months in the winter – like seminaries do.
But, I’m not being delusional, obviously going to Eretz Yisroel won’t stop, boys won’t start dating earlier and people are still going to spend out of their means.
We don’t change. We’re pretty stubborn.
The most Lakewood thing I’ve seen on TLS
I’m sorry it didn’t work for you. For many others it does – as is evidenced by the great Bochurim who come back. Parents of children like you should know that their children won’t be able to grow should speak to their Rav because they have a much bigger problem.
Until they get their freedom in the hefker velt of the yeshiva they choose in EY, they don’t know the child isn’t mature enough. They don’t find out until it’s to late.
Profound
You sound like you were the type of guy who was concidered the best guy in yeshiva and a popular guy and only learnt to impress your rosh yeshiva and once you went to ey there we’re so many guys better than you and no rosh yeshiva that you can impress and no one was talking about you that you were a top guy (another words no shaychis guy) and socially there was a lot more geshamak guys than you so all your kiss ups stoped looking at you so it killed your ego so now your deciding that everyone else is the problem because it killed your ego and realized you just a regular average guy so I think that ey put you in your place and really was the best thing for you your just to ignorant to realize!!!
And you sound like a guy who has no clue with his head in the sand and pretends that there aren’t real and severe pitfalls that can catch a person off guard and cause him to become stuck in a rut and cycle of ruchniyosdig harm.
But the truth is, that you know there are hangouts around every turn in E”Y.
Many opprtunities to get in contact with someone you shouldnt.
Meet a freinds freind, and end up by the wrong shabbos meal, with the wrong people.
And if you deny that, its not because it isnt there, its because your ok with that. lets face it.
The writer claims to be from Brisk. That’s his forum and that’s what he’s addressing.
You’re targeting a crowd that’s a thousand miles away from that crowd. This isn’t the discussion.
No. He’s saying he was in brisk and saw to much that he shouldn’t have seen. Not only for brisk is this a problem, but for majority of the yeshivos in EY. Don’t make it sound like Geula is all kosher, because it’s near brisk. That’s a joke. every second crevice in geula there’s something not kosher for bachurim. Many times drugs, shmutz for sale etc.
Nailed it
Wow, you sound like a navi. You got all that from his letter? Your letter sounds like denial.
My dear fellow Bachur:
It appears you are in 9th grade.
luckily he is bar mitzvah, maybe he should start shidduchim?
With all due respect, I am around your age and went to same yeshiva and I have no idea what you’re talking about. Exposed to big nisyonos?? Not learning?? some guys yes, but most are learning, and most have and will be “exposed” to irreligious people in their life.
If the problem was just a few irreligious people, there wouldn’t be a discussion.
But what is the oilem going to say?
And what about shidduchim?
And I really can’t tell my son what to do …..
And any how my wife tainne’s that her friends son shteiged alot
This is interesting. My son in a local bais medrash told us that he had a brochure in his yeshiva from out of country, who did not go home for pesach, because going through the airport is just not kdai. Now I hear why
Not a real letter u can see it is fake if u read clearly. Not going to say more. But he may have a good point anyway. I know a man who would go every few weeks to check up on his son. He came randome without saying when he will show up.
That man needs help, mind you.
Actually a caring and concerned parent. B’H he was able to afford the trips.
So youe supposed to spend 30 thousand a year to send your daughters to seminary. for them its safe! 30 Thousand dollars, safe!
But boys , we cant be sure about! And once again we have to be telling the boys what to do!
Curious who the real letter writer is here, and if its someone we have heard from many times in the past , just wearing another mask!
Unbelivable !
Older Single Guy
Not everything in our world makes sense. This is one of those things, as you’ve said. You’ll get married very soon it”h and will have a good life in spite of all this garbage.
The girls in many sems are having negative experiences, too.
The girls are supervised almost 24/7. They practically have to take a staff member with them when they go shopping for snacks. Or to the kosel. Maybe the reason you’re older and single is because who have your head in the sand.
For starters I can’t talk about brisk but what I could say is that I’m in the mir and the overwhelming majority of the guys are plugging away and everyone has a rebbi that knows where they are holding so instead of cursing out eretz yosroel (which is an issur of lashon harah) talk about brisk, yagdil, and any other yeshiva that doesn’t have rebbeim.
Next, the parents should not be making decisions like this, it is not their place, it’s the rosh hayeshiva that gets to make such calls and the majority of them are recommending for their bachurim to go.
And last but not least please tell me that it’s a coincidence that this letter was posted on tls soon after the owners son got ingaged completely ditching going to Eretz Yisroel
“Any other yeshiva that doesn’t have rebbeim”. Inisnuating to say that Brisk doesn’t have Rebbeim?
Your point about Lashon Hora. If you’re to be correct on this “fact” of yours, is that not Lashon Hora?!
Yes, Brisk does not have Rebbeim that’ll pay your back, no they don’t have that. But why they do have is Rebbeim that are legitimate Mechanchim in real learning. That’s unparalleled in the entire EY.
You have your definition of a Rebbe like many do in certain circles, and I have this definition like all in the Brisk bochurim kind of circles/world do.
Be careful what you write. Accuracy and language is key.
Maggiday Shiur [If you are lucky to get in] are not “Rebbeim” that your standard yeshiva offers.
Really you’re shteiging in the Mir and posting on line. Hypocrite. No, not everyone in the Mir has a rebbe. Some do, some don’t. Even those that do, how often does the rebbe check up on the bachur in his Dira? Make sure he’s not getting into things he shouldn’t be. As to who should be making the decision, most roshei yeshiva are nogeia b’davar. Chas v’shalom my talmid didn’t go to a top yeshiva. These roshei yeshiva in many cases are part and parcel of the problem. I recently posted how my rosh yeshiva caused me to lose out, because he felt a certain yeshiva was lower then his standards. I would’ve had much more hatzlacha there. But, no that yeshiva is for bachurim that don’t know how to read the gemara. It was a sheker. He was looking for his own kavod.
i actually think TLS posted this letter once before….
Also,FYI-i dont get to go to EY often, but when i went/go, i only had a spiritual recharging. BH i didnt have the letter writers issues. And what makes u a Mitzooyan?? cuz u learned in famed yeshivos??
many if not most yungerleit in the US have been shteiging for decades as a continuation of those critical 2 years in Eretz Hakodesh AND those Charedi neighborhoods which host the boys from the US are full of yereim usheleimim either vasikin for first zman kriyas Shema even on Shabbos so to pause the freezer and send bochurim earlier all of this has already been endorsed by Gedolei HaTorah! but to suggest to rule out going to Eretz Yisroel? this really requires a Shailas Chacham of a Gadol, but why not try first to implement what the Gedolim suggested and then see if it resolves much of the shidduch crisis?
Silly letter false letter bored person looking to make some hock
I personally see it as a red flag when i meet a guy that says he didnt go to learn in ey. I rather have my daughter not marry a guy that was scared, he cudent travel through an airport because he wouldent be able to control himself!! Or that never really lived life “on his own” and learn to be a reponsible adult and yo be able to handle the real world, no body is gana be on top of you when your 30 or 50,. There comes a point in life when he have to leave your “mommy’s”nest or your “rosh yeshivas nest and start talkng resposibility for your own life, and i rather my daughters husband do that when hes 20 and singel as apposed to when hes 30 and has 3 kids and all of sudden he cant fake it anymore, i kno some people might be confused but hamevin yavin, unfortunately theres alot that goes on in klal yosroel thats not so public, so pls weather ur the top bachur or not everyone can beifit from goin, and no its no its not the same as being in an out of town yeshiva or goin to miami with your freinds on bh!!
This reminds of a story I heard of a “top bochur” (and ofcourse a מיוחס!) who came back from Brisk with a line out the door for him in shidduchim. An acquaintance told me (without saying his name) that every night he was in the worst places imaginable but in bais medrash he was a “lamdan” and there he got his reputation….
Rav Wolbe z”l (I think it was him) once wrote that there will come a time when bochurim will go from the theater to bais medrash and back and not see a סתירה. Today, I only wish it was a theater….
This is so absurd to anyone in the know. How many bochurim are there in any recent tekufah that went from Yagdil to Brisk? Just a few. No one would write their age and that information I a public forum. Hundreds of bochurim would know in a heartbeat who wrote it and his struggles are public. No way that it’s true so why believe any other part of it. And yes, we all know many many bochurim that shteiged and did beautifully. Of course there are those that didn’t but oh please
I’m not sure whose side I am on this.
But to they person that said “to thy own self be true” a pretty fancy way to say it but it’s true.
There isn’t much we can do to if people want to go to Israel the summer they turn 18 and live in a rundown shack on the outskirts of meah shearim but when you look in the mirror there, there’s a half grown man in place where a kid has stood.
im convinced the scoop hired someone whos onlu job is, is to write letters to the scoop, and come up with bizarre topics
I’m just a few years older then the writer, I was in Kollel for five years and I’m now in the work I h word. I look back at my two years in Eretz Yisroel as a Bochor, I don’t known where I would be today without out those years, I grew so much as a mench, and in yeras shomayim. I had many friends I can say the same for.
I’m I in a bubble? I just don’t think so..
To whomever you are,
I’ve read your letter carefully. It’s irrelevant whom penned this letter. That isn’t the point.
Well, although you’ve made a point – and made it well, nonetheless here’s a fundamental mistake which the writer is making (whomever the writer is):
The nisoyin described in this letter I’m sure was a big nisayon, but in all due honesty – the נסיון is yours, and only yours. Everyone has theirs.
Now to go ahead and spread your personal nisayon to everyone just like that is pathetic. It’s just incorrect.
Any adult with half a brain will tell you this.
As an aside, I’ve been through the king of Yeshivos, Yeshivas Brisk on Rechov Pres. I’m not a fan of anything or anybody on earth. All the while, I must say that although many linear American thinkers may be incapable of being able to appreciate the prestige of this great mokim torah, which brings the mesorah of Torah to Klal Yisroel – it is to be known that the place is a הר, and the posuk says כל הנוגע בהר מות יומת.
We are talking about a מסורה straight from their grandfather Reb Chaim Volozhener and ultimately the Gaon.
The present maggidei shiur there are the chains in this wealthy mesorah.
Bashers will always be, but appreciators are rather seldom. Anyone can bash, but few few are capable of appreciating.
Bottom line:
1) Your נסיון may have been hard for you – totally understandable. At the same time, the belief that everyone is in your shoes with your challenges, is beyond wishful. It’s just not the case, as outlined.
2) Be careful before you bash any מקום תורה. It’s not a church. It’s a place where the דבר ה׳ is being given over. This applies to every Yeshiva in the world. To say it mildly, it’s rather unsmart to take a jab at Yeshivas Brisk. Aside for the Yeshiva….(as described), you’re up against giants such as Reb Chaim, and the Brisker Rav. These people are too big. Could only haunt an offender. Not worth your while, and as mentioned is אסור to be done.
Metzuyonim don’t write or talk this way. לא זו הדרך. This is a shame.
To Wondering:
Try not to get so bent out of shape.
The writer was NOT insulting Brisk or Yagdil. Quite the contrary !
He didn’t say anything specific about what he saw. Your not the only person assuming what his nissayon was. The fact is, when sending a young bachur 6000 miles away, mostly to unsupervised yeshivos, anything can happen. Brisk and Mir for example, the bachur is completely on his own. Room, board and food. Who’s going to check the dira, making sure these young impressionable boys aren’t getting into things they shouldn’t. The boys have a c/c to spend. As long as nothing shows on the bill, the parents don’t know. The parents can’t afford to go every other week to check. Not everyone is able to control themself. Not everyone understands that money isn’t to waste.
I don’t know if this letter is true or not. That being said, I will say that I learned in EY about 12 years ago and while I was able to learn shtark, I was told that there are places that a yeshiva bochur doesn’t belong and if a bochur is found there, he can get in trouble. But that is pretty much everywhere you go. There’s a famous yesod from the baalei mussar-where there’s more kedusha, there’s more tumah. I was actually worried about it before I went to EY and I was told that it depends on your mindset. If you are determined to learn, then you’ll be able to learn.
Yes & No.
It is well known that the main battle for fighting the Yetzer-is not to allow one self to be in the situation.
There IS an added aspect of being in an UNSUPERVISED environment that CAN lend itself to falling.
P.S. Rav Wosner ZT”L did not visit America, simply because he did NOT want to put himself in the Airport environment !
About Rav Wosner not visiting America – not true regarding him. He had a sister and a son in New York whom he visited. The gadol you are referring to is the Brisker Rav
I heard from someone that wanted to bring his son from America to Eretz Yisroel before his Bar Mitzvah as is a common practice, and Rav Wosner told him that its not worth all he can gain and the Brachos etc. if he will have to go through the Pritzus of the Airplane and Airport.
MY EXPERIENCE:
The letter is 100% correct 💯!
However, I think I am better off because of what I went through in EY, married and shteiging. I could be wrong, but, I am almost positive that I am better off today BECAUSE of what I went through there!
Then again, that’s not a REASON to davka send them there
There are definitely bocherim that do well in EY but I have once simple questions are there more % of boys going up or higher % falling down I was there 10 year ago and that is definitely a higher % of bocherim that do worse in Israel
SO WHY take A risk !?
If I was your 3 yr old freshly upsherened bechor I’d become a ben soirer umoireh from having u as a father!
Shoitah.
I don’t think it’s about shteiging it’s to get away and live on your own , I personally can’t imagine if I wouldn’t have gone plus I’m learning way way more in Israel than I was in America . that being said the point you make about waste of money , you can argue all you want but I think the real problem is seminary’s where your spending 25k and all they do is brainwash the girls .Most yeshivos are free in tuition and are basically free to send .
Most yeshivos are free tuition? Are you out of your mind? While there are problems with the seminary system, one thing they all have, and many yeshivos don’t have, SUPERVISION.
“Why do we need Yerushalayim when we have Berlin, I mean Lakewood” is that really what you are suggesting???
When you say you are a metzuyan, Do you mean to tell me that perhaps you were a grade a product from an assembly line where you were told what to do, and how to do and were never trained in how to use the Seichel Hayashar that HaShem has granted you bchessed Elyon.
This is the reality of many of the bochrim you describe. Like the bird that hatched in a chicken coup and never knew it could fly.
It is not your fault, you were never allowed to be yourself, because you wanted these things, you constantly are needing people’s approval (your parents, Rabbeim etc) at what point does your bechira then kick in? When have you ever chosen the right thing?
Yes, you are right you were thrown into the deep with no preparation for the challenges of being on your own.
In the end, you and many like you have what is called Stockholm Syndrome, look it up. Again, not your fault it is the system you grew up with where individuality is shunned. You are so lost you don’t know who you are.
I will leave you with this, there are many Yeshivos in Eretz Yisroel with true ovdei HaShem at their helm, who are emesdik morei Derech. Find a Rebbi who can guide you. That is my advice for parents sending children to Eretz Yisroel. Find out when the Rebbi / Rosh Yeshiva will be in your vicinity in the few months prior to going to Eretz Yisroel. Find him and make an appointment to speak with him. He does not need to be the one you will hear shiur from if you choose that path. He is the one you will call and put you in touch with his wife perhaps or whoever when you wake up with a cold in a foreign country and aren’t sure how to navigate. The one you spend shabbos with. No, big big mistake to eat in Yeshiva over shabbos. Get exposed to yidden who are building their homes. See the maalos they portray so when you are building your own home in the near future you will have some examples to emulate.
One thing you are correct about, gravity. It’s science, if you can not stand strong and proud of who you are, you will fall. If you are standing strong and proud you won’t see that stuff around you that will simply be beneath you.
Ureh Btuv Yerushalayim Kol Yemei Chayecha
From a Yungerman on the ground in Yerushalayim
Yungerman-
Many points… but none repudiate the writers point !
P.S A Yungerman on the ground in Yerushalayim SHOULD NOT HAVE ACCESS TO INTERNET.
Why not first see how they do in hefker yeshiva located in America. Where the parents can check in and make sure he’s where he belongs.
Wow !!! Finally ,someone with enough guts to say it the way it is .
The writer is extremely accurate. Bachurim mostly go to the larger yeshivos that are not designed to supervise what the young men are doing or where they go. There tends to be lots of hefkerus.
To those that responded about the lack of a shiur for 4th year bachurim, that’s nothing more than an excuse from all sides. The parents, bachurim and the roshei yeshiva. Bachurim that age should be learning themselves and have a shiur k’lali once a week.
Yes, many shteig and grow. Yes, many have huge yeridos. Each bachur needs a thorough evaluation with parents and rebbeim that know the bachur inside and out. I’ll use myself as an example. My rav that knew me personally as well as my family wanted me to go to certain yeshiva, a hands on yeshiva in EY. He felt knowing me that I would grow and become a more well rounded bar aliya. My rebbe from mesivta belittled that makom, pushed me to go elsewhere. I won’t say I didn’t learn, however my rebbe was 100% wrong and the rav was 100% right. I needed that makom. I needed a rebbe to be more hands on in my learning to help me.
Basically, the roshei yeshiva in America gave to also be honest with themselves about where their talmidim are holding. It’s not about the rosh yeshiva kavod, It’s about the growth of the talmidim. Those that are willing to accept that there exosts something other than an aleph talmid are the real roshei yeshiva. The rest are kavod hungry.
As someone who lived in EY for the beginning of my marriage this boy is absolutely correct. There is so much exposure just steps from the yeshiva . It’s true some really manage to avoid it but even if a boy wants to it can be in his face. Whoever is bashing this has not been to israel and seen the reality recently. It’s different from a seminary where the girls have all their needs in a dorm. The boys have to venture out to buy/cook food and take care of their needs do face a lot of exposure.
This letter writer is extremely close minded. There are guys that experience what you did, even 20 years ago, and there were the bochurim that grew tremendously in EY, not only in learning but as a whole yid. I’m of the latter.
Please Lakewood is kinderish enough after you get married we should know no better?
Kinderish ???
Talk about closed mindedness.
I cannot comment on what this Bochur went through, but I have a very close acquaintance that went to learn in Ponovez in Bnei berak and did extremely well. Why is everyone running to be in YERUSHALAYIM where there is so much going on? I agree that Yerushalayim has a certain kedusha that is not found in anyplace in the entire world, but Bnei Berak is like no other place in the world!!! I also wonder why all the seminaries are focused on Yerushalayim? Spread your wings!!!
I had the same experiences as this Author, yet I would go back again and again AND AGAIN. The kedusha that I did experience, the challenges that I had to face, and the knowledge of myself that I ultimately found-I would not switch for anything. Never.
I am a married man with a wonderful wife and 4 delicious kids and I am not in ‘Lakewood with no distractions’.
My relationship with them takes deep love, focus, effort, and ultimately yields fruits that I am so proud of.
I am in the workplace. Traveling between the Beis Medrash and the outside (corrupted) world. And it is the idealism, dreams, and connection to my Creator which i gained in E.Y. and only E.Y. that keep me going.
What else are we living for-another dollar in the Bank?
Yosef Hatzaddik,
Bravo !
However the Jewish perspective is NOT to put one self in the Nisoyon.
The answer to the problem is… just stay in E.Y. When you are comparing E.Y. to Chutz Laaretz, there will be many excuses why Chutz Laaretz is better (more Kedusha in America, which seems odd). Also, taavos are everywhere, this is a problem that is not exclusive to Israel, but is a Human issue. More direction is needed from parents and Rabannim to address this is in a healthy manner- there is no mitvah to drop your kids off on Israel’s door and expect him to find his own direction thru these things. So in short, talk to your kids and talmidim about these issues, and guide them in their growth in Israel.
If only that was the mehalech. However, no roshei yeshiva do that. In many cases the parents are not involved in the decision process. Parents are than told to pay the bill. It’s for his growth. And if he’s the son that needs to be supervised, now what? Does the rosh yeshiva hop on the plane, or the parents? If chas v’shalom something happens does the rosh yeshiva tear k’riah and sit shiva? It’s not a small basket, It’s huge. There needs to be much more shlita over these young impressionable bachurim.
I am a 22 yr old and have learned in Israel for 2 years, let me just tell you…if parents would know 25% of what is going on they would drive down there and bring back their children.
I do not want to go into too many details, but I have personally spent nights in the hospital with boys who smoked too much of the wrong stuff and no, these are not “off the D” boys, these parents have no idea of what is going on.
Question: Would you let your 19yr old go anywhere by himself with any supervision? if the answer is no, then DON’T SEND YOUR SON TO ISRAEL.
Obviously there are boys that learn well and behave, but the risk is too great.
and btw the situation is very similar with seminary girls as well.
Dear parents,
Please really look into what is going on before making a decision!
we do as daas Torah says, NOTHING else matters.
please define daas torah. thanks
there aint no definition
Bottom line: it depends on the bochur and on the yeshiva.
be a mench and dont insult.
I was in EY around the same time as the writer, and in one of the mentioned Yeshivas, although I assume there must be some truth to what he is saying, because this isn’t the first time I’ve heard of it, I personally have not experienced any bigger nisyonos in EY than in America. No one I know ended up in the hospital for anything malicious. I obviously knew there were places that were not good to go to, and I didn’t go there. The everyday shopping for groceries didn’t present any special challenge. Maybe it depends on your personality, but I didn’t feel like I had to struggle more over there. I won’t say that I shteigged a huge amount, but I definitely didn’t fall. I have stepped into diras (from other Yeshivas) and seen some rather undesirable characters doing undesirable things, but it wasn’t commonplace where I was, and it wasn’t the type of ppl who were “top bochurim” in America.
Additionally, a big focus of the letter writers nisoyon was the flight and airport, is that airport worse than any other? I don’t remember it being particularly bad. Are you saying that bochurim shouldn’t fly anywhere? That might be a point, but then pen your letter as “don’t let bochurim fly” instead of “don’t let them go to EY”
Bottom line: I don’t doubt your experience, but there are definitely many with an extremely different experience, and some in between. I don’t even think it’s impossible to know what type of experience your son will have. There may be some ppl that are harder to tell, but im pretty sure my parents rightfully did not think there was I huge risk for me, and my friends parents as well. (Again, this may be more of a personality difference than “good guy bad guy”)
Actually chaver, no.
I went to reb tzvi, hardly “that crowd”, and I saw PLENTY of this stuff, along with guys from Brisk, R’ Dovid, and Yagdil.
B”H i was in a different environment.
But this Yungerman is 100% correct that it affects boys in every yeshiva.
Rubam B’gezel, Mi’utam B’arayos.
How many is Mi’utam. 2%? or 15%? Can it be r”l 25%?
How does one stay out of that “miut”? Are that miut reshaim gemurim? Or good people who had ‘accidental’ situational occurances?
Probably both. The main thin is staying safe By making sure “al tivi’eini lidei nesayon”.
An honest answer. The environment includes your chevra. Keeping in touch with a rebbe. Having supervision, is a must.
Another marketing ploy by the ‘shidduch crises promoters’. Stop putting everyone in one stew that you cook. Every boy and girl is an individual with their story, needs and situation. Each person must do what’s best for them and ask advice from the wiser. You don’t need to solve the shidduch crises, hashem runs the world ‘still. if you want to help redt shidduch that make sense and help coach our youngsters to make right decisions for them, not be impulsive or do or say things that will make themselves undesirable. It just requires time and caring and loads of patience.
But they are helping people be makayem pru urvu
I never comment and I see that there are already many comments and opinions posted, but I feel the need to say something.
If you are already messed up over the flight in to Eretz Yisrael then you shouldn’t go shopping on Clifton. That said, I never in my 2 years in Israel did I have the experience that you had. Maybe I got lucky or maybe I went in with my eyes open and did my prep beforehand. You can always end up with a bad chavrusah/dira/beis medrash etc. but there’s always the option to change. I’m happy you recovered when you got back.